Quote from: CRKrueger;564337Why does my god give me a spell once a day?  Because he does, you may not like it, but take it up with him.

This is an incredibly silly defense when you're defending a system/setting wherein you actually can go ask the god, and he won't know. (Maybe some version of Deities & Demigods or Powers & Pantheons has actually explained why Moradin can only give you X spells based on your level per day, but I have not read it.)

Quote from: beejazz;563826You should check the second article he wrote on the topic. He mentions that it's not meant to disparage dissociated mechanics, which are good and useful in some places. Immersion isn't the be-all end-all of what RPGs are, after all.

Immersion is relative.

Holy shit, with the GD MathWars, and the goonsquad antics, I forgot good old fashioned 4vengers exist. 'Sup Jack.

Christ, maybe I should mention immersion and see if I can summon twofish.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;564384This is an incredibly silly defense when you're defending a system/setting wherein you actually can go ask the god, and he won't know. (Maybe some version of Deities & Demigods or Powers & Pantheons has actually explained why Moradin can only give you X spells based on your level per day, but I have not read it.)

Actually, this is explained in AD&D.  In fact, it's mentioned that if the cleric isn't adhering to his faith, the god may add additional limitations to the # and level of spells the cleric is allowed.

But I wouldn't expect you to actually know this.  And I fully expect you to backtrack because you have zero integrity.  How do I know this?  Because everyone sees what you post on SA and what you have to say about this site and the members of this site, and you expect to come here and then try to act like you want an honest conversation?

"Hey guys!  I know you totally saw me calling you all douchbags and idiots, but wanna talk?"

:huhsign:

I have no idea who you are in real life, or what challenges you face, but I'm starting to think that something is honestly broken in your head.  People without issues don't spend so much time on the internet with the sole purpose of propagating cross-board flame wars like you do.

Now go ahead and quote me on SA like I expect, or have one of your pals do it.  That will be a shocker.

Quote from: CRKrueger;564337However, there is one place 4e takes the cake in dissociation, the dreaded Fighter Dailies.  

...

Why does my fighter get to roundhouse kick or whirlwind strike or mortschlag once a day?  Umm...because?

You can't just go about roundhouse kicking every strike in a fight.  The opening needed for a truly devastating blow only appears every so often.

You can contrive any reason you want to.  It doesn't really matter.  Non-magic powers on a timer aren't really new, and magic powers on the timers that they have don't make any sense for non-contrived reason because they were only added for 'disassociated' or 'gamist' reasons in the first place.

I personally don't really care because I don't think those things are necessarily bad, and I think that D&D is a good game probably because of being a 'game' foremost rather than a 'immersive roleplaying experience' or something equally pretentious.  I think that Shadowrun as an example could probably be a better game if it was really shooting for being a game first rather than a cheesy Sci-Fantasy elfpunk simulator.

In a world where a Dragon with a silly name is President and everyone is an elf with a katana that casts magic I'm not overly concerned with the level of detail put into the hacking mechanics or the realistic lethality of gunplay.

D&D clearly has never been concerned with any of that, and for me adding Roundhouse Kick 1/Day to the Figther doesn't really break my immersion any more than Smite Evil 3/Day did in the past.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;564396"Hey guys!  I know you totally saw me calling you all douchbags and idiots, but wanna talk?"

:rotfl:

Q: What are some systems that have associative advancement mechanics?

A: Hey, 3e has dissociative mechanics!

Seriously, what does that have to do with anything, even assuming you're right in all cases?

I agree that daily powers are not really different from spells-per-day in regard to dissociation. And also agree that all editions of D&D are really on the dissociated side overall ( even if 4E is the worst of the bunch). But its not a bad thing really. Because if D&D tried to get associated it would probably end up like Shadowrun. (I don't dislike Shadowrun at all, but I think its system would support its setting better if it was more on the dissociated side, like D&D).

Did it make any sense? I felt I went on circles here. XD

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;564399You can't just go about roundhouse kicking every strike in a fight.  The opening needed for a truly devastating blow only appears every so often.

Correctamundo!

and why is that exactly?  Well it's because certain techniques are more difficult to do and/or telegraph themselves more, so you only use them at the most opportune moment, or when your opponent is at a disadvantage or when you know you probably can't do it but try anyway in an attempt to quickly finish the fight.

Associated methods of dealing with this are giving a penalty to attempting the move, giving bonuses to your opponent to counter if you reuse it, etc...

Dissociated methods are letting the player choose when to do it for narrative punch by limiting it to once/day.

The fact that to you those look the same does not in fact mean they are.  

As far as the other snarky cocknocking crap, well, you like 4e, it's a dominant gene in your DNA apparently.  

Quote from: CRKrueger;564437Correctamundo!

and why is that exactly?  Well it's because certain techniques are more difficult to do and/or telegraph themselves more, so you only use them at the most opportune moment, or when your opponent is at a disadvantage or when you know you probably can't do it but try anyway in an attempt to quickly finish the fight.

Associated methods of dealing with this are giving a penalty to attempting the move, giving bonuses to your opponent to counter if you reuse it, etc...

Dissociated methods are letting the player choose when to do it for narrative punch by limiting it to once/day.

The fact that to you those look the same does not in fact mean they are.  

As far as the other snarky cocknocking crap, well, you like 4e, it's a dominant gene in your DNA apparently.  

This is where I am with stuff. Letting me do a round house kick once a day or once an encounter seems strange. Much better to make it a straight penalty except under the right conditions or something like that. At least for me.

When I saw the original post the game that came to mind, apart form RuneQuest, of course, was Earthdawn.  In Earthdawn the character levels, and abilities all exist in the game setting and are measurable in game as they get tested to qualify a character to train into the next level.

Beat that for associated game systems!

Quote from: silva;564426I agree that daily powers are not really different from spells-per-day in regard to dissociation.

I can't but have a smile come to my face when a guy like you, silva, who posts about storygame this, narrative that, and so on, not seeing the difference between them and trad RPGs, then comes up and says "hey, there's no difference in terms of association between daily spells and daily powers for everyone!"

Kind of falls flat on my ears, in a kind of "well, duh, of course you would say that" sort of way, if you see what I mean.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;564396Actually, this is explained in AD&D.  In fact, it's mentioned that if the cleric isn't adhering to his faith, the god may add additional limitations to the # and level of spells the cleric is allowed.

But I wouldn't expect you to actually know this.  And I fully expect you to backtrack...

I'm not backtracking. I said in my original post that I might be wrong. I still think that's a lousy explanation--is Moradin always watching? Will he not give me an extra spell even if I really need it to liberate the realm from Demogorgon? Why doesn't he give spells to every loyal worshiper who fights for justice? What kind of training is actually involved in learning to channel divine power? What about modifying and inventing new spells?" There's a whole host of questions that can go into this, all of which serve to illustrate that it's ridiculous to make long arguments about realism and logic on why fighters can't have daily powers, but magic never requires any explanation beyond "It's magic so it doesn't have to make sense." It's lazy reasoning working backwards from a desired conclusion.

Quote...because you have zero integrity. How do I know this?  Because everyone sees what you post on SA and what you have to say about this site and the members of this site, and you expect to come here and then try to act like you want an honest conversation?

If I had zero integrity, I wouldn't use the same username on every RPG forum where I'm registered. I definitely wouldn't come here and say "Hey, most of SA is publicly readable, and if you actually read it, you'd learn that your notion of what SA's gaming community is like is a hilarious caricature." If I had zero integrity, why would I give you a big neon sign pointing to everything I've posted everywhere and invite you to engage me and call me out on it?

Quote"Hey guys!  I know you totally saw me calling you all douchbags and idiots, but wanna talk?"

Why would you even care? "I'm losing the argument, hurf durf time to call the other guy a retarded faggot!" is this forum's trademark. If you don't want to post on a forum where using abusive language in place of actual arguments is the norm, there are several other forums where that's not tolerated.

QuoteI have no idea who you are in real life, or what challenges you face, but I'm starting to think that something is honestly broken in your head.  People without issues don't spend so much time on the internet with the sole purpose of propagating cross-board flame wars like you do.

I don't want cross-board drama. It takes pathetically little attention from anyone on SA (or RPGnet) for RPGsite posters to start wailing and weeping about the grand conspiracy against them.

The only thing that makes me question my sanity is that I keep coming here periodically, thinking that I might be able to have a legitimate conversation with someone here without it being drowned out by a mixture of invective and paranoia.

QuoteNow go ahead and quote me on SA like I expect, or have one of your pals do it.  That will be a shocker.

You haven't said anything funny or interesting.

Forgive the excess snark, but it's akin to a colorblind person agreeing that there's no difference between red and green.  I'm sure that's a Dan number, but that's what it seems like.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;564463I keep coming here periodically, thinking that I might be able to have a legitimate conversation with someone here without it being drowned out by a mixture of invective and paranoia.

Let's pretend for a millisecond that this is true and you don't just come over here to create grogtext material.

Start a conversation.  Make a thread.

Quote from: CRKrueger;564464Forgive the excess snark, but it's akin to a colorblind person agreeing that there's no difference between red and green.  I'm sure that's a Dan number, but that's what it seems like.

Yeah, basically.