I'm thinking of doing away with money in my next game, not in the communist utopian sense, but in the post apocalyptic if you can't eat it, kill with it, ride it or make something useful out of it, nobody wants it sense.

Do you have any suggestions on how to make this work well?
What potential problems (and solutions to the same) do you foresee?

If we're talking a D&D rules set, what do the PCs get XP for if not loot?

Quote from: misterguignol;545192If we're talking a D&D rules set, what do the PCs get XP for if not loot?

That is a good question for which I have absolutely no answer beyond assigning xp value to non monetary loot.

Quote from: Aos;545189I'm thinking of doing away with money in my next game, not in the communist utopian sense, but in the post apocalyptic if you can't eat it, kill with it, ride it or make something useful out of it, nobody wants it sense.

I'm the guy who wrote the Economics essay and rules in the Tribe 8 Companion.  They were written because the post-apocalyptic Tribe 8 setting was written assuming a barter system rather than money and players who are used to things having prices for comparison were having a lot of trouble figuring out how to value things and, as a result, supplement and adventure writers were starting to put in money-like work-arounds to avoid the problem.  I wanted to preserve the barter system, which I thought was cool and fit the setting well, so my goal was to make it easier to handle, and I got some positive feedback about the essay and rules that I wrote.

The gist is to come up with a list of common goods that get exchanged and group them into broad value categories based on demand and utility so that players have some idea of what's equivalent, and then deal with availability and variations in barter value.  You can get the Tribe 8 Companion PDF for $6 on RPGNow if you want to see the essay and, no, I don't get any royalties if you buy it.

So the key problem I've seen is that players don't know how to assess comparative values without prices and the solution is to give them a list of goods with some sort of comparative value so they can make those assessments.

Does it have to be simpler than "items have a monetary value, same as the normal price list, it's just that there's no actual money"?  I mean, I know you CAN get more involved than that, and that there's more to a barter economy, but for gaming purposes, it seems like that's a start.

In another thread I mentioned how Metal Earth would seem to be well suited for Barbarians of Lemuria.  Now, I understand the lure of D&D.  However, how loot is treated in Barbarians can be brought over to D&D.  It’s an easy rule to adapt.  Here is the rule from Barbarians.

“Vast Hoards of Treasure

Do not be stingy – describe the mountains of gold and baskets full of gems, the silver chalices and tiaras, the jewel-encrusted scepters and gold-chased bracelets, the chests overflowing with silver and the crowns that once belonged to lords, princes and kings. Tell them it is wealth beyond their imaginings; if they suggest counting up the value, just laugh at them! Have they turned into accountants all of a sudden? The thing is, they can’t take it all with them so they can only pick the choicest items. They can always come back for more!

Advancement Points

Characters get better at doing things as they complete their adventures and their fame spreads. However, they have to earn their improvements. They do this at the end of the saga they just completed or before the beginning of the next one.

Remember all that loot they picked up? Well, they have the chance to describe exactly what they did with it. They might live the high life for a few months, drinking or gambling it away. They might buy new weapons and armour (or get their old stuff repaired) or buy kroarks, or throw expensive parties, or spend it all on women. They might send expensive gifts to their friends. They might use it to buy a new galley, new land or pay off debts. This is the stuff of legends – it ensures that they are noticed and helps their fame to spread. I mean, no one was with them when they killed that great Xolth in the dark pits beneath Urceb, so how else are people going to know about it?

Once the characters have described how they lost or spent all their fortunes, they can gain Advancement Points. How many you give out depends on how they spent their loot to the best effect. Normally, you would give out 2 points. However, if their story is particularly good, amusing or inventive, you can give out an extra point; especially if the way they construct their story gives you a lead-in to the next adventure. On the other hand, if the character keeps back some of the money or is miserly with it, he gets only one Advancement Point.” Simon Washbourne,  Barabarians of Lemuria  40  (Cubicle Seven 2009).

Adapting the rule to D&D would entail replacing Advancement Points with experience points.  A saga could be defined as a session, adventure or even campaign, depending on how one favors experience point distribution.

Edit: Since it is Metal Earth the loot wouldn't necessarily be piles of gems, of course.  Perhaps a slag heap of rusted metal or the hides from creatures slain.  Whatever the loot may be in the campaign setting, it isn't tallied. It is described, and it must be all spent to gain the character's experience points.

Quote from: John Morrow;545197You can get the Tribe 8 Companion PDF for $6 on RPGNow if you want to see the essay and, no, I don't get any royalties if you buy it.

I'll have to give it a look; it's a shame you won't get any $ for it, though.

Quote from: Kuroth;545211In another thread I mentioned how Metal Earth would seem to be well suited for Barbarians of Lemuria.  Now, I understand the lure of D&D.  

BOL is my very close second choice to B/X; really, it only loses out because everyone already knows how to play basic D&D and I can make up junk for it standing on my head whilst being prison raped. Anyway, I like this rule and i may port it over. Thanks for reminding me about it.

Quote from: Aos;545219BOL is my very close second choice to B/X; really, it only loses out because everyone already knows how to play basic D&D and I can make up junk for it standing on my head whilst being prison raped. Anyway, I like this rule and i may port it over. Thanks for reminding me about it.

Very cool.  I thought you probably had read Barbarians alright.  I think Metal Earth is pretty cool.  It all has the feel of the the place in it's presentation too.  People living there wouldn't have fancy maps!

Quote from: Kuroth;545220Very cool.  I thought you probably had read Barbarians alright.  I think Metal Earth is pretty cool.  It all has the feel of the the place in it's presentation too.  People living there wouldn't have fancy maps!

That has always been my feeling. I think I even said somewhere or other that maps of any kind are a type of treasure in Metal Earth.
Anyway, I will likely make use of BOL at some point.

Quote from: Aos;545217I'll have to give it a look; it's a shame you won't get any $ for it, though.

My two essays (on population and economics) are only a part of the book (7 pages) and it was done as a work for hire and I'm fine with not getting anything for it.  It's my one bit of paid and published RPG work.  My main point was that I was recommending it because it was relevant to your question, not because I would get any financial gain from it.

From the Wikipedia article on Barter:

"Contrary to popular conception, there is no evidence of a society or economy that relied primarily on barter. Instead, non-monetary societies operated largely along the principles of gift economics and debt. When barter did in fact occur, it was usually between either complete strangers or would-be enemies."

Widespread use of barter is most common in situations where a monetary economy has collapsed.

Some pre-monetary cultures were more oriented toward gift exchange and others toward explicit debt repayment arrangements.

Quote from: Yasha;545303From the Wikipedia article on Barter:

"Contrary to popular conception, there is no evidence of a society or economy that relied primarily on barter. Instead, non-monetary societies operated largely along the principles of gift economics and debt. When barter did in fact occur, it was usually between either complete strangers or would-be enemies."

Widespread use of barter is most common in situations where a monetary economy has collapsed.

Some pre-monetary cultures were more oriented toward gift exchange and others toward explicit debt repayment arrangements.

Very true. In rural parts of my country, and I bet in other parts of Europe, you can still see it, "Hey, I brought some eggs and some potatoes, take them".

EDIT: And welcome to therpgsite!

It comes to this, don't make having stuff important to the system. You don't see Thundarr or Kamandi upgrading their gear or holding on to stuff.

Mechanically make it so that a character's chances of success are based primarily on his own abilities and skills and in mechanical terms the difference between using one gun or another are too trivial to be worth bothering with. All you need to know is that a gun is designed to kill people, by how much they kill people is sort of academic.

The BoL suggestion is a good one. Equipment is BoL is abstracted to the point that it doesn't get in the way but not to the point it stops making sense.

Quote from: John Morrow;545197I'm the guy who wrote the Economics essay and rules in the Tribe 8 Companion.

Everybody involved, however tangentially, in Tribe 8 has a demigod status in my eyes.