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Author Topic: The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System  (Read 8432 times)

Omega

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #150 on: October 30, 2019, 04:00:07 PM »
Quote from: Opaopajr;1112487
Since I see the table as a quick and dirty bunch of dials set on a particular setting mode, I see a lot of this conversation as a rant about the current channel and display without using the remote to change them. :confused: It is a fascinating drama playing out, but it doesn't look like it's anywhere close to catharsis. :) Will this show get renewed for another season?

The book even TELLS you to adjust things to better suit your campaign. Of course the OP ignores that. soooo.

Village Idiot Application #ILOSTFREACKINGTRACK: The Series will probably be renewed for another season of pedantery and lies. Horray.

sureshot

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #151 on: October 31, 2019, 07:01:10 AM »
Quote from: Omega;1112528
The book even TELLS you to adjust things to better suit your campaign. Of course the OP ignores that. soooo.

Village Idiot Application #ILOSTFREACKINGTRACK: The Series will probably be renewed for another season of pedantery and lies. Horray.

I still don't know the premise of the entire show given how the writer of said show either keeps making mistakes or incoherent off the wall rants.

Sacrificial Lamb

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #152 on: November 01, 2019, 12:53:22 AM »
Quote from: Omega;1112528
The book even TELLS you to adjust things to better suit your campaign. Of course the OP ignores that. soooo.

Village Idiot Application #ILOSTFREACKINGTRACK: The Series will probably be renewed for another season of pedantery and lies. Horray.


Good grief. Everyone here knows that "Rule Zero" applies to every single game ever created and played in the entirety of human history. Yes, you can change individual rules for your campaign. That suggestion is not revolutionary. I'll say this again to the "Rulingsz Not Rulesz" crowd, because this point needs to be hammered into the thick skulls of grognards everywhere:

"'Rule Zero' has no place in a discussion on how game mechanics actually work." :cool:

The only exception I'll make for this statement above, is if the rules and game mechanics of a game are modular enough to enable you to easily change entire subsections of the rules without wrecking the entire game. AD&D has that level of modularity, while 5e largely does not. Granted, you can change some things in 5e, but not nearly as much as you can with AD&D......at least not without the game system imploding.

Anyway, did you read the mathematical breakdown I made in my previous post? It was carefully detailed. Read it again, and consider the implications behind the math. Then try to apply that math to magical craftsman who don't even have the Persuasion skill or a high Charisma score, which would make those calculations appear even more depressing. The base system in the 5e DMG is objectively horrible.

Now I will admit that magic item craftsmen could greatly improve how quickly craftsmen find a potential buyer willing to pay them for their labor, if they get hold of a 14th-level Bard (due to the Bard's 'Expertise' and 'Peerless Skill" class abilities)......but 14th-level Bards don't grow on trees. The omnipresence of extremely high level Bards in every magical sale should never be considered the default expectation for the entire magic item industry. That's neither plausible nor practical. So the base system is dog shit, "Rule Zero" or not. Now here's a question. Can we change this subsystem without fucking up "Bounded Mediocrity"? I don't know. :cool:

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic
Since you're so thorough, sacrificial Lamb, I want to see your take on the XGE crafting rules since that's what's the up to date version anyway.


I could do that. I'll go through the entire Xanathar crafting system, step by step. It certainly is different from the system in the 5e DMG, and it'll take me a while to go through it. I'll start covering it in my next post. :)

Opaopajr

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #153 on: November 01, 2019, 04:10:27 AM »
:confused: The crafting table is to me an expression of power scale row vectors to setting variables column vectors. Basically it is the Crafting Matrix, expressing the setting neutral state of D&D (favoring adventuring over crafting, if you like...), for you to adjust to your own liking. Are matrices no longer math? :confused:

How are generic aspects, let alone generic systems, to be represented if they must have high granular specificity, or even fixed equations? :confused: Maybe "Rulings, Not Rules" has a design point about the limits of design from precision detail. :) Maybe "Rules Zero" is being used too dogmatically, or possibly even as a canard to those with axes to grind (looks at "Frank Trollman's libelous comment" topic)?

Perhaps it is better, once the rage is out, to remember we all have feet of clay. :)
Just make your fuckin' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what's interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it's more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
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Omega

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #154 on: November 01, 2019, 08:48:00 AM »
Ignoring the usual ranting...

Neverwinter Online actually has an interesting crafting system for running your own workshop. Its not very realistic in some aspects. But otherwise is not bad and a definite step up from the older system I am told.

There are several crafting categories and at the start you have 2 basic random artisans in a category you choose. And two all purpose adventurers that you send off to gather materials.
Each category has a signature tool. And better tools improve the crafting chance and possible quality of what is made. And using quality materials also slightly increases the chance of a quality item.
Every artisan has 3 stats. Their skill at successfully crafting the desired item, and their skill at possibly crafting a qualiy item. And wether or not they are expensive to set to a task, and lastly how fast or slow they are in completing a task. Each also comes with a perk that has a % chance to come into effect. Such as completing a task really fast, doing a piece for free, recovering the materials if theres a botch, or getting twice as many items from a single order. And there are 3 tiers of artisans with the higher tiers usually being a little better in some way. Same for the adventuerer gatherers.

Crafting something takes time, and costs gold and needs materials. And has a chance to fail if the skill level is not 100% for that tier of work. On a fail the materials are lost. On a success there is a chance to make a quality version, these usually either have better stats if it is adventuring items. Or improves chance of quality success if a material.

On top of all that you need those gatherers to go out and get you the base materials for crafting. Most usually need refining in some way. A few do not. And there is usually a sort of progression to crafting. Armoursmithing example: you need copper ore and tin ore gathered. This can be processed into bronze ingots. The ingots can be processed into plates, chain, or scale which is used to make various bronze armour pieces. But some pieces also need leather or cloth as well. And these come from other categories. So you can either eventually hire artisans in those areas. Or buy the leather and cloth from an NPC or other players. And NPCs only sell base gathering materials to about tier 3 or 4. After that you have to get it yourself or buy from other players. For example to make a bronze armour chest piece you need bronze rings, leather and cotton cloth. 3 different artisan fields.

And after about tier 2 or so none of the stuff crafted sells to NPCs for more than it cost to make it.

And of course crafting takes time. Even in the accellerated time of the MMO. Low level stuff can be done in 10-20 minutes, higher tier projects can take 3 hours or more. ALOT more if you have a really sloooooow artisan. upwards of 3x as long.

All in all not bad really.

rawma

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #155 on: November 09, 2019, 03:38:40 PM »
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1112114
Edit: My apologies to you, rawma, for giving you grief about the ability scores. I was wrong about that section.


Apology accepted. If you quit playing 5e years ago, then you really haven't played much. Most casters increase their spellcasting ability because the payoff to their cantrips and spell save DC are very high in so many spells.

Quote from: S'mon;1112296
Edit: BTW +3 armour is very rare - one might even say legendarily rare :D - in 5e. This is part of the Bounded Accuracy thing. I have run a shitload of 5e over the years including two 1-20 campaigns and seen I think one set of +3 half plate, no other +3 armour.


Harshnag the Frost Giant in Storm King's Thunder had +3 plate that resized to the wearer; I would have had multiple PvP deaths if Harshnag had died, just trying to claim that armor.

Quote from: Zalman;1112328
Edit: see any fantasy myth that includes magic items. Usually, the origin of the item is a complete mystery, much less its manufacture. When its creation is specified, it's never the point of the story but a quick montage. It's generally explained by being crafted by a fucking god. In the rare case a character in the story creates a piece of magic, it's because that piece has a very specific use that is absolutely critical to that character in that story. I can't think of any fantasy story where anyone sells such a thing after making it themselves. Can you? Whatcha got?


I can remember non-protagonists who make or have made magic items for others and likely for sale (Tolkien's dwarfs seem to have done this; various magical folk in Harry Potter) but they'd pretty clearly be NPCs. I can't come up with one where the protagonists trade in magic items that they also manufacture. Potions might be the most likely exception, but it's a lot like hiring out to cast a spell. Maybe there's an example in Vance?

Zalman

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #156 on: November 10, 2019, 11:47:28 AM »
Quote from: rawma;1113430
I can remember non-protagonists who make or have made magic items for others and likely for sale (Tolkien's dwarfs seem to have done this; various magical folk in Harry Potter) but they'd pretty clearly be NPCs. I can't come up with one where the protagonists trade in magic items that they also manufacture. Potions might be the most likely exception, but it's a lot like hiring out to cast a spell. Maybe there's an example in Vance?

Yep, these things are relegated to off-screen, quick-montage, and NPC types (aka non-protagonists) in every case I can recall. Let's face it, the manufacture of goods for profit is not a particularly engaging fantasy story, whether it's in books, film, or RPGs.

I can't think of anything like this in Vance either (though there are plenty of mysterious items that no one quite understands the origin or use of in Vance's works, as it should be).
Zal

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Shasarak

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #157 on: November 10, 2019, 01:59:51 PM »
Quote from: rawma;1113430
I can remember non-protagonists who make or have made magic items for others and likely for sale (Tolkien's dwarfs seem to have done this; various magical folk in Harry Potter) but they'd pretty clearly be NPCs. I can't come up with one where the protagonists trade in magic items that they also manufacture. Potions might be the most likely exception, but it's a lot like hiring out to cast a spell. Maybe there's an example in Vance?

The whole of Harry Potter is based on buying and selling magical items and the child PCs have school classes where they learn how to make them.
There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

rawma

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #158 on: November 10, 2019, 02:39:35 PM »
Quote from: Shasarak;1113469
The whole of Harry Potter is based on buying and selling magical items and the child PCs have school classes where they learn how to make them.


:confused: Outside of potions class (and it's not clear that potions are intended for sale - most are used by the person who makes them), I can't recall much matching this description; the main characters spend way more time learning to cast spells, defending against Voldemort and his allies, and looking for Horcruxes. The Weasley twins sell (prank) magic items, but hardly qualify as PCs; most of the oddities sold are components or magical versions of normal things. It is also a world with very little resembling dungeon or wilderness expeditions.

Shasarak

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #159 on: November 10, 2019, 03:32:26 PM »
Quote from: rawma;1113473
:confused: Outside of potions class (and it's not clear that potions are intended for sale - most are used by the person who makes them), I can't recall much matching this description; the main characters spend way more time learning to cast spells, defending against Voldemort and his allies, and looking for Horcruxes. The Weasley twins sell (prank) magic items, but hardly qualify as PCs; most of the oddities sold are components or magical versions of normal things. It is also a world with very little resembling dungeon or wilderness expeditions.

Outside of potions?  So outside of the class that teaches you to make magical items you dont see much being taught about how to make magical items?

That makes me wonder how Tom Riddle found the secret of making Horcruxes if no one is taught how to make magical items.
There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

rawma

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #160 on: November 10, 2019, 09:08:45 PM »
Quote from: Shasarak;1113476
Outside of potions?  So outside of the class that teaches you to make magical items you dont see much being taught about how to make magical items?

That makes me wonder how Tom Riddle found the secret of making Horcruxes if no one is taught how to make magical items.


One class out of many; one professor teaching it out of many. It seems a less prestigious subject as well. And where are the potion sales? I gather you can't sell to muggles and if everyone magical learns to make potions, where would the demand come from?

Horcruxes may be no more magic items than a simulacrum; it seems likely you could make one for yourself but not make one and sell it to another. And clearly they didn't teach making Horcruxes in any class, or the heroes would have had a much better idea what was going on. Looping back to D&D again, pointing out spells that make things like magic mouth, continual flame, teleport circles, etc wouldn't really answer complaints about rules for PCs making magic items.

HappyDaze

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #161 on: November 10, 2019, 09:13:55 PM »
Quote from: rawma;1113502
And where are the potion sales? I gather you can't sell to muggles and if everyone magical learns to make potions, where would the demand come from?

Just about everyone can cook their own dinner, but many still grab fast food for convenience. I would think potions might be the same.

Omega

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #162 on: November 10, 2019, 11:33:41 PM »
Quote from: HappyDaze;1113503
Just about everyone can cook their own dinner, but many still grab fast food for convenience. I would think potions might be the same.

Not everyone knows which mushrooms are safe and which are not. Wayyyyy back we had a local restaurant or such make this fatal mistake and a few people died and the rest were sent to the hospital and nearly died.

Well that and the horriffic fact that one of my players can barely cook water. :eek:
aheh. Actually I know alot of folk who either are totally inept at cooking, or just never had a reason to learn. I actually never learned to cook for a long time till I moved in with Jan who owned her own diner way back. Till then I was pretty inept at cooking. Similarly Kat was very knowledgeable on herbs and had quite a collection. Whereas all I can identify are sassafras and white pine to make herbal teas.

Instead I'd say about anyone can learn the bare bones basic to make the essentially non-magical healing potions in shop in 5e as all you need is the right skills/tool skills and some basic ingredients. But not everyone has the time or inclination to.