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Author Topic: The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System  (Read 8433 times)

estar

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #120 on: October 28, 2019, 10:15:03 AM »
Quote from: S'mon;1112040
BPer XGTE page 126, locating an item (other than a Potion of Healing) costs a minimum 100gp and 1 work week

I would treat all common magic the same as potion of healing in terms of availability. The problem with core 5e is that there literally only a handful of common items. With XGTE the list has greatly expanded and doesn't appear to have anything more useful than a potion of healing.

There is a hole in XGTE that they offer an alternate Table A to account for the new list of common magic items.

estar

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #121 on: October 28, 2019, 10:20:40 AM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1112100
Anyone know an OSR game with good magic item crafting rules?

Or any OSR supplement devoted to crafting? Or any 3PP 5e supplement that rewrites the crafting rules?

Perhaps that would be useful to the discussion.


I have had thousand of people download this

http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Magic%20Costs%20Rev%205.pdf

Although after several years of playtesting I come around to 5e's view on +4 and +5 items and now use this

http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Magic_Item_Creation_Rev_2.pdf

And I use this random table to generate the contents of a magic item shop. Just enter in the value of the inventory.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx9oLF40m-b8ZlpRMTJvbl9tVWc/view?usp=sharing

It for use with Inspiration Pad Pro 3.0 (free)

https://www.nbos.com/products/inspiration-pad-pro

The general rule of thumb is that the inventory value in 1/10th of the proprietor's XP in d.

d for denarius is a silver piece but if you want to have magic item shop but with higher prices then interpret it as a 1 gp. I have favorable reports of people doing it either way.

Also my merchant rules which is partly based on ACKS rules. However I haven't smoothed out the integration with commercial shops. This version mainly for player who want to run a ship like Traveller's Free Traders

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1v-DQ9X5a1Tairnbu_5p4tqca50Cj-hze/view?usp=sharing
« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 10:23:04 AM by estar »

mAcular Chaotic

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #122 on: October 28, 2019, 12:26:07 PM »
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1112114
Sigh. :(

Yes, you are correct. Thank you. I am embarrassed.

But this is all still very weird. 5e has a system of Bounded Accuracy, but everyone is assumed to have the human maximum ability score of 20 in their main ability score. That's just so.....idiotic. Why even have bounded accuracy in the first place, and then create a system where everyone almost inevitably has a 20 Strength or 20 Charisma (or whatever) by either 8th-level or 12th-level? So this means that your ability scores are one of the most important aspects of play.

I don't like that design decision.

However, my item crafting calculations are still correct. I'm still right about the crafting system....which is the point of this thread.

Edit: My apologies to you, rawma, for giving you grief about the ability scores. I was wrong about that section.

Honestly, you've made so many mistakes it's becoming clear you don't really know what you're talking about. Why are you pouring so much time and effort into a game you don't even play? You just randomly decided to theorycraft about a design decision you don't like, is that it? Oh well.

I have to give credit for just admitting you're wrong though. "I don't like the design" is pretty much the truth of the matter.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

S'mon

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #123 on: October 28, 2019, 01:36:41 PM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1112173
Honestly, you've made so many mistakes it's becoming clear you don't really know what you're talking about. Why are you pouring so much time and effort into a game you don't even play? You just randomly decided to theorycraft about a design decision you don't like, is that it? Oh well.

He's not had much sleep for a long time. :( Guess this is his way of coping.

Sacrificial Lamb

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #124 on: October 28, 2019, 09:07:47 PM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1112173
Honestly, you've made so many mistakes it's becoming clear you don't really know what you're talking about. Why are you pouring so much time and effort into a game you don't even play? You just randomly decided to theorycraft about a design decision you don't like, is that it? Oh well.

I have to give credit for just admitting you're wrong though. "I don't like the design" is pretty much the truth of the matter.


Quote from: S'mon
He's not had much sleep for a long time. :( Guess this is his way of coping.


Admittedly, yes....I am very tired and sleep-deprived, so I made some mistakes. However, I'm discussing 5e, because it looks like nobody truly critiques this stuff. Every edition of D&D has received ruthless examination and critique, except this one. So I'm trying to deconstruct the system, to see what's right or what's wrong......and take things to their logical conclusions.

And despite my mistakes, I'm still right about the main issues of the crafting system. Posters on this thread could only poke holes on points that weren't even integral to my central arguments. If most buyers refuse to pay you for your labor, then that creates a DISINCENTIVE for crafting magic items. If the only people who might be willing to pay you a little bit for your labor are all "shady" criminal underworld types, then these game mechanics demonstrate a situation that is the opposite of human nature. Ethical people are more likely to pay you for your labor. Unethical "shady" criminal underworld people are less likely to pay you for your labor.  Additionally, there is no incentive for six 11th-level Wizards to spend 8 hours a day in a room, every day.....for 11 months, just to craft a Frost Brand sword that is barely any more combat efficient than a Sword +1. :cool:

A brass Horn of Valhalla is objectively better than a silver Horn of Valhalla, but these two items are the exact same price.

Using the rules as written, nobody will spend 55 years crafting Leather Armor +3, a Potion of Storm Giant Strength, or Sovereign Glue. And you will never convince dozens of 17th-level Wizards to work on these items simultaneously, in order to bring the crafting times down. If WoTC truly wanted to make these magic items into artifacts.....then they could have done that. But they didn't. These are not truly powerful or awe-inspiring magic items, and the system for crafting them creates a situation where most of the stuff in the DMG wouldn't even be crafted in the first place.

ABSOLUTELY NOBODY here has had a legitimate response to these issues. That's the truth. People here are getting butthurt when I bring this up, especially when I start talking about "incentive". I mean, I don't see anyone here talking about how they crafted a "very rare" or "legendary" magic item in their campaigns, using the rules as written. That tells me a lot. That tells me that posters here are defending a system that they don't even really use. And I sense the reason why they don't use it, is because the game mechanics create a DISINCENTIVE for them to use the rules as written.

Articulating this seems to really irritate the "rulings not rules" crowd. There's nothing wrong with admitting that the system is defective. Gygax will not come back from the dead, and slap you guys to death for heresy.

Quote from: deadDMwalking
No you don't. Ranting about a game that you don't even play without either understanding how it works or trying to build a better system for your own gaming is a waste of your time that you could be doing better things with. I don't play 5e and I don't like 5e. But it doesn't give me a rage-inducing brain aneurysm to think that others might play and might enjoy it. To then focus specifically on item crafting which is well-outside of the experience of most groups is really insane. Even if the creation of magical items were completely retarded, the rules do have a way of placing magic items as treasure that actually works.

Your argument is a little bit like saying bees can't fly - even if you were right that they SHOULDN'T be able to, they DO. If magic items SHOULDN'T be created, but they EXIST in the setting it implies that there is something you're missing, not that it is impossible. The 5th edition ruleset isn't complete (which is its own problem) but if they provide new rules on 'magical materials' that remove the GP cost of magical items, would you suddenly reverse course and feel that the Magic Item Creation rules are actually good?


Did you notice that you're not really addressing my points? Are my central points correct, or are they wrong? If so, why are they correct? Why are they wrong?

We are here to discuss tabletop roleplaying games, aren't we?

Whatever my current issues might be, I am still capable of being mostly fair. If someone corrects me, I'll admit my mistakes....as I have done so in this thread. So let's address all my mistakes in this thread. Issues that I forgot or missed:

(1.) Consumables are half price (however, this errata'd rule was not in my book)
(2.) PC makes a Charisma (Persuasion) check, and adds that total to the roll on the "Selling A Magic Item" table
(3.) Ability Score Improvement (ability scores can improve by 2 points at 4th, 8th, 12th, and 19th-level; because bounded accuracy is so unforgiving, it's implied that PCs will have an ability score of 20 in their primary stat by 8th or 12th-level)
(4.) Humans have +1 to all ability scores
(5.) One advantage can cancel all forms of disadvantage, and vice versa (this argument was in a different thread though)

I noticed the backgrounds, but didn't bring them up.....because it's unlikely that most spellcasters will automatically have the Guild Artisan or Noble background, when there are 13 different backgrounds in the DMG to choose from.

So now that I have articulated all my mistakes, how or why does this affect my central points? Are you now going to have your 17th-level Wizard spend the next 55 years crafting Leather Armor +3? Or will he somehow convince four other 17th-level Wizards to help him spend every day of his life crafting a suit of Leather Armor +3 over the next 11 years? The answer is....

....definitely not. :cool:

If the answer is "definitely not", then how do these "legendary" items ever get made......when there is no INCENTIVE to spend 55 years of life crafting this stuff?

Nobody here has a legitimate answer for this, and I just see people turning their brains off and engaging in "handwavium" instead. When people here do that, I see it as an indirect admission that the game mechanics are defective.

deadDMwalking

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #125 on: October 28, 2019, 10:08:48 PM »
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1112248
Nobody here has a legitimate answer for this, and I just see people turning their brains off and engaging in "handwavium" instead. When people here do that, I see it as an indirect admission that the game mechanics are defective.

And you are wrong to do so.  What is the intent of item crafting rules?  Is it to give players the tools to make items?  Or is it to tell them it's possible but actively discourage them from doing so.  The rules for PCs are not the rules for NPCs in 5th edition.  While that's objectionable, claiming that PC rules don't work for NPCs doesn't actually say anything people didn't already know.  

There is no handwavium required to say 'someone spent 55 years making an item, not because they wanted to make some money but because they had a vision that it would save their people'.  Like, Noah built an arc for similar reasons.  Nobody sits here and says 'but why build an arc if you can't sell it for a profit as if there couldn't be any other reason you might want an arc before a flood...
When I say objectively, I mean 'subjectively'.  When I say literally, I mean 'figuratively'.  
And when I say that you are a horse's ass, I mean that the objective truth is that you are a literal horse's ass.

There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all. - Peter Drucker

Sacrificial Lamb

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #126 on: October 28, 2019, 11:33:37 PM »
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1112258
And you are wrong to do so.  What is the intent of item crafting rules?  Is it to give players the tools to make items?  Or is it to tell them it's possible but actively discourage them from doing so.  The rules for PCs are not the rules for NPCs in 5th edition.  While that's objectionable, claiming that PC rules don't work for NPCs doesn't actually say anything people didn't already know.  

There is no handwavium required to say 'someone spent 55 years making an item, not because they wanted to make some money but because they had a vision that it would save their people'.  Like, Noah built an arc for similar reasons.  Nobody sits here and says 'but why build an arc if you can't sell it for a profit as if there couldn't be any other reason you might want an arc before a flood...


Oh? What are the separate rules for NPCs crafting magic items then? By your justification, I didn't see them in the book. We have rules for how many hit points a Giant Goat in 5e has. You think it's too much effort for WoTC to provide the rules for how NPCs create magic items? Is that really so hard?

By the way, we are discussing someone theoretically crafting a suit of Leather Armor +3....and not someone creating a gigantic arc that saves the lives all living creatures that walk the Earth. I talk about suits of Leather Armor +3, or Potions of Storm Giant Strength, or Sovereign Glue. Don't you think it's a little disingenuous to compare these items to the Pyramids of Egypt or Noah's Arc (which enables the survival of all life on Earth)?

They're not artifacts, remember? :)

Do you also remember when I said that "handwavium" has no place in a discussion of how game mechanics actually work? By saying this, you indirectly acknowledge that I am correct.

mAcular Chaotic

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #127 on: October 28, 2019, 11:46:54 PM »
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1112248
If most buyers refuse to pay you for your labor, then that creates a DISINCENTIVE for crafting magic items. If the only people who might be willing to pay you a little bit for your labor are all "shady" criminal underworld types, then these game mechanics demonstrate a situation that is the opposite of human nature. Ethical people are more likely to pay you for your labor. Unethical "shady" criminal underworld people are less likely to pay you for your labor.  Additionally, there is no incentive for six 11th-level Wizards to spend 8 hours a day in a room, every day.....for 11 months, just to craft a Frost Brand sword that is barely any more combat efficient than a Sword +1. :cool:


I'll address this point. The way I interpreted that rule re: shady/ethical people is that it costs more to sell an item through official channels, just like in real life. You have to go through certain markets, pay certain fees, etc. Whereas if you just throw it on the black market, you skip all of the safety and regulations and get more profit, but open yourself up to danger. In fact I never thought of it another way until I read this, but I'm convinced that this is what the rules were going for.

I agree that it is unlikely a player will spend 55 years crafting such an item. But I don't think the rules are aimed at PCs in that case, but just something a kingdom of elves might do. Why would a bunch of wizards work together? Because their king ordered them. Etc. It's not something people do on a whim willy nilly, but rare, because magic items are rare.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

Sacrificial Lamb

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #128 on: October 28, 2019, 11:56:51 PM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1112275
I'll address this point. The way I interpreted that rule re: shady/ethical people is that it costs more to sell an item through official channels, just like in real life. You have to go through certain markets, pay certain fees, etc. Whereas if you just throw it on the black market, you skip all of the safety and regulations and get more profit, but open yourself up to danger. In fact I never thought of it another way until I read this, but I'm convinced that this is what the rules were going for.

I agree that it is unlikely a player will spend 55 years crafting such an item. But I don't think the rules are aimed at PCs in that case, but just something a kingdom of elves might do. Why would a bunch of wizards work together? Because their king ordered them. Etc. It's not something people do on a whim willy nilly, but rare, because magic items are rare.


I think that there are some orders that high-level Wizards would refuse to follow, king's orders or not. I'm having great difficulty imagining a scenario in which six high-level Wizards would willingly submit themselves to indentured servitude for almost a year, in order to create a weapon that is barely more combat efficient than a Sword +1.

I just don't see it. :(

Doom

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #129 on: October 29, 2019, 12:10:12 AM »
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1112278
I think that there are some orders that high-level Wizards would refuse to follow, king's orders or not. I'm having great difficulty imagining a scenario in which six high-level Wizards would willingly submit themselves to indentured servitude for almost a year, in order to create a weapon that is barely more combat efficient than a Sword +1.

I just don't see it. :(

Great, the crafting rules for PCs are rubbish and clearly are a subtle way of saying "PCs can't trivially craft whatever they want." Now, it's clear in the game that NPCs have different crafting rules (these items obviously exist in many modules, and were clearly not made by the players at your table).

Sooo...all we still have here is there's a page of rules you don't like in a game you don't play. Nothing wrong with that. Everyone who cares to have more PC crafting has houseruled it (I have)...what kind of fix do you propose, or is this really going to go on forever?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 01:48:22 AM by Doom »
(taken during hurricane winds)

A nice education blog.

Sacrificial Lamb

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #130 on: October 29, 2019, 02:03:07 AM »
Quote from: Doom;1112283
Great, the crafting rules for PCs are rubbish and clearly are a subtle way of saying "PCs can't trivially craft whatever they want." Now, it's clear in the game that NPCs have different crafting rules (these items obviously exist in many modules, and were clearly not made by the players at your table).

Sooo...all we still have here is there's a page of rules you don't like in a game you don't play. Nothing wrong with that. Everyone who cares to have more crafting has houseruled it (I have)...what kind of fix do you propose, or is this really going to go on forever?


You seem slightly irritated there, chief. :cool:

What I like or dislike doesn't matter much, does it? Isn't this discussion about what makes sense in the 5e crafting rules, and what does not? If certain game mechanics are defective or nonsensical, then I don't see an issue with ruthlessly deconstructing and critiquing those game mechanics.

You're saying it's "clear" that NPCs in 5e use different crafting rules. Well, are those NPC crafting rules codified, in the form of actual game mechanics? You're being very carefully non-specific about that, which implies that separate NPC crafting rules don't truly exist.

Yes, I'm sure that magic items appear in the 5e adventure modules. However, I seriously doubt that the authors of these modules are asking themselves questions about how Leather Armor +2 (which takes five-and-a-half years to craft) or Leather Armor +3 (which takes 55 years to craft) are making an appearance in these products.

In other words, I'll bet you that very little logic is being used when placing magic items in these products.

Meanwhile, you're telling me to create a solution (in a not-so-subtle attempt to shut me up)......when multiple posters haven't even honestly acknowledged that any problems even exist within the 5e magic item crafting system at all.

The importance of this issue has a very profound effect upon the entire game, much more so than just a few mere pages of rules. The acquisition of loot and magical bling during a dungeon expedition is half the point of playing Dungeons & Dragons. If most of the magical bling would not logically even be crafted, then that creates a very weird situation....putting nearly half of the basic premise and motivation of the game into jeopardy. In AD&D, acquisition of coins and magical bling enabled you to acquire xp. In 3e, acquisition of coins and magical bling enabled you to craft or buy more magic items. 5e does neither of these things. :(

In 5e, only Potions of Healing are for sale, and most magic items cannot or will not be realistically crafted (due to insanely long time constraints, and also due to most customers refusal to pay magic craftsmen for their labor). Additionally, in 5e......you don't acquire xp from the acquisition of coins or magical bling either. Can you see how this all might be a slight issue? :cool:

When I bring up the fact that it takes 55 years to create Leather Armor +3 or Sovereign Glue, other posters start disingenuously making comparisons to the Pyramids of Egypt or Noah's Arc. See how dismissive responses like that might be a subtle barrier to discussing the actual game mechanics, or even as a barrier to discussing the DISINCENTIVES of using such game mechanics?

deadDMwalking said this:

Quote from: deadDMwalking
And you are wrong to do so. What is the intent of item crafting rules? Is it to give players the tools to make items? Or is it to tell them it's possible but actively discourage them from doing so.


Wouldn't it be more honest for the authors of 5e to just openly say that they don't want PCs crafting magic items, instead of passive-aggressively trying to manipulate players into not crafting anything at all? Right? Isn't full transparency better?

Meanwhile, the crafting system indirectly ties into bounded accuracy, or as I like to call it, "Bounded Mediocrity". Fixing the item crafting system really depends upon how tightly woven, "Bounded Mediocrity" is in the game. Will the RNG fall apart if PCs can reliably craft +3 Leather Armor or Swords +2? I'm not sure. "Bounded Mediocrity" is designed to greatly limit the PCs ability to affect their environment in any meaningful way. If I delve into solutions for this, then I might have to start delving into the issues with "Bounded Mediocrity" as well.....and I sense that you don't really want that. :)

If we just stick with the magic item crafting rules themselves, and entirely ignore the monstrously idiotic clusterfuck of the "bounded mediocrity" rules......then there would still have to be changes. Things like:

* reducing crafting times for magic items
* providing multiple formulas for crafting magic items
* creating a system where the default position is that magical craftsman can actually charge customers for their labor
* describing auction houses for magic items
* discussion of how magic bling fits into the economy
* create haggling rules (only applying these rules, when appropriate)
* describing (and codifying, via game mechanics) some of the types of customers you might receive
* describing and codifying game mechanics and rules for what magic item shops might look like

S'mon

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #131 on: October 29, 2019, 02:26:14 AM »
Because the DMG suggestions on PC crafting are so weak, they published different rules in XGTE. If you want official workable rules, use those.

Edit: BTW +3 armour is very rare - one might even say legendarily rare :D - in 5e. This is part of the Bounded Accuracy thing. I have run a shitload of 5e over the years including two 1-20 campaigns and seen I think one set of +3 half plate, no other +3 armour. Definitely no +3 studded leather. I've seen a level 18 Rogue in non-magical studded leather! I think he has +2 armour now as an Epic-20 PC (I make very rare 25,000gp and legendary 125,000gp), but it might only be +1.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 02:30:57 AM by S'mon »

HappyDaze

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #132 on: October 29, 2019, 03:23:45 AM »
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1112294
You seem slightly irritated there, chief. :cool:

What I like or dislike doesn't matter much, does it? Isn't this discussion about what makes sense in the 5e crafting rules, and what does not? If certain game mechanics are defective or nonsensical, then I don't see an issue with ruthlessly deconstructing and critiquing those game mechanics.

You're saying it's "clear" that NPCs in 5e use different crafting rules. Well, are those NPC crafting rules codified, in the form of actual game mechanics? You're being very carefully non-specific about that, which implies that separate NPC crafting rules don't truly exist.

Yes, I'm sure that magic items appear in the 5e adventure modules. However, I seriously doubt that the authors of these modules are asking themselves questions about how Leather Armor +2 (which takes five-and-a-half years to craft) or Leather Armor +3 (which takes 55 years to craft) are making an appearance in these products.

In other words, I'll bet you that very little logic is being used when placing magic items in these products.

Meanwhile, you're telling me to create a solution (in a not-so-subtle attempt to shut me up)......when multiple posters haven't even honestly acknowledged that any problems even exist within the 5e magic item crafting system at all.

The importance of this issue has a very profound effect upon the entire game, much more so than just a few mere pages of rules. The acquisition of loot and magical bling during a dungeon expedition is half the point of playing Dungeons & Dragons. If most of the magical bling would not logically even be crafted, then that creates a very weird situation....putting nearly half of the basic premise and motivation of the game into jeopardy. In AD&D, acquisition of coins and magical bling enabled you to acquire xp. In 3e, acquisition of coins and magical bling enabled you to craft or buy more magic items. 5e does neither of these things. :(

In 5e, only Potions of Healing are for sale, and most magic items cannot or will not be realistically crafted (due to insanely long time constraints, and also due to most customers refusal to pay magic craftsmen for their labor). Additionally, in 5e......you don't acquire xp from the acquisition of coins or magical bling either. Can you see how this all might be a slight issue? :cool:

When I bring up the fact that it takes 55 years to create Leather Armor +3 or Sovereign Glue, other posters start disingenuously making comparisons to the Pyramids of Egypt or Noah's Arc. See how dismissive responses like that might be a subtle barrier to discussing the actual game mechanics, or even as a barrier to discussing the DISINCENTIVES of using such game mechanics?

deadDMwalking said this:



Wouldn't it be more honest for the authors of 5e to just openly say that they don't want PCs crafting magic items, instead of passive-aggressively trying to manipulate players into not crafting anything at all? Right? Isn't full transparency better?

Meanwhile, the crafting system indirectly ties into bounded accuracy, or as I like to call it, "Bounded Mediocrity". Fixing the item crafting system really depends upon how tightly woven, "Bounded Mediocrity" is in the game. Will the RNG fall apart if PCs can reliably craft +3 Leather Armor or Swords +2? I'm not sure. "Bounded Mediocrity" is designed to greatly limit the PCs ability to affect their environment in any meaningful way. If I delve into solutions for this, then I might have to start delving into the issues with "Bounded Mediocrity" as well.....and I sense that you don't really want that. :)

If we just stick with the magic item crafting rules themselves, and entirely ignore the monstrously idiotic clusterfuck of the "bounded mediocrity" rules......then there would still have to be changes. Things like:

* reducing crafting times for magic items
* providing multiple formulas for crafting magic items
* creating a system where the default position is that magical craftsman can actually charge customers for their labor
* describing auction houses for magic items
* discussion of how magic bling fits into the economy
* create haggling rules (only applying these rules, when appropriate)
* describing (and codifying, via game mechanics) some of the types of customers you might receive
* describing and codifying game mechanics and rules for what magic item shops might look like

Since you've already written so much on this,  why not user your word count to present a better set of rules that still fits within the basics of 5e (i.e., that accepts the way proficiency bonus and skills work without altering them). Bitching is the easy part.

Omega

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #133 on: October 29, 2019, 03:32:36 AM »
They were definitely aiming to tone down magic items in some ways in 5e. Ring of protection only goes to +1, weapons and armour only to +3 at best. Dont think even artifacts go over +3?

Low level stuff though is fairly easy to craft. Which makes sense as alot of it is utility items or really basic things. With a few notable exceptions in the uncommon category that if mass produced could change things notably. Which is an element I've been playing with in my current campaign. The main limiter is rarity of some key elements.

And I think some of the time in the listed item crafting time scale is probably accounting for assembling the needed elements. But as written possibly not. YMMV.

Sacrificial Lamb

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The Many Flaws of the 5e Crafting System
« Reply #134 on: October 29, 2019, 04:56:53 AM »
Quote from: HappyDaze;1112299
Since you've already written so much on this,  why not user your word count to present a better set of rules that still fits within the basics of 5e (i.e., that accepts the way proficiency bonus and skills work without altering them). Bitching is the easy part.


Bitching might be easy, but deconstructing the actual game mechanics is hard. Most people are unwilling or unable to really do this. Before I even think about creating new rules, I'm deconstructing and critiquing the game mechanics in the most ruthless way possible. I think that doing this is a good mental exercise, and personally......it helps me to more completely understand the nuances of the game.

But that wouldn't be a terrible idea. I just wonder what other issues of the crafting system that I might be missing in all this.