Hardly. Your numerous errors clearly reveal someone who has not actually played 5e much.
* The belief that it would be surprising for an 11th level sorcerer to have a 20 Charisma (or, more generally, that a primary caster would be unlikely to increase their casting ability)?
Again with this bullshit? I'll bet you that at least half the 5e groups out there use point buy. When you use
POINT BUY, then your Sorcerer can start off with a base Charisma of 15. If he's Human (+1 Charisma), then that Charisma will be 16. If he's a Half-Elf (+2 Charisma), then it could be 17. But there's no guarantee that the Sorcerer will automatically be a race with a Charisma bonus. For the record, I wasn't treating the Drow as an "Elf"....even though they are technically Elves. They're an evil race of spider-worshipping megalomaniacs, so I wasn't treating them as part of the "Elf" entry...even though they technically are. In most cases, the magical merchants you meet will not be Drow. In other words, I don't consider Drow relevant to the discussion. :cool:
Anyway, the character can then get a bonus to an ability score at 4th-level and 8th-level.....improving his Charisma by +2.
So if we use point buy as a way to determine a character's stats, then this is the likely Charisma score for an
11th-level Sorcerer.
* 11th-level Stout Halfling Sorcerer
(17 Charisma)* 11th-level Wood Elf Sorcerer
(17 Charisma)* 11th-level Hill Dwarf Sorcerer
(17 Charisma)* 11th-level Human Sorcerer
(18 Charisma)* 11th-level Half-Elf Sorcerer
(19 Charisma)See? There's lots of 11th-level Sorcerers with "only" a 17 Charisma
(via point buy).
And even if you roll your ability scores, there is no guarantee that your stats will be any higher than they would be under point buy.
I KNOW YOU KNOW THIS. That means that there's no automatic expectation of an 11th-Sorcerer having a 20 Charisma. This is just pure logic.
You were nitpicking over the dumbest shit, that had nothing to do with the central argument. I mean, really. And let's be honest here. If you always assume that the Sorcerer will have maximum human Charisma
(Charisma 20), then you are unintentionally making the point that you don't feel fully comfortable with Bounded Accuracy either in concept or in play.....even if you'd like to believe otherwise.
* Not noticing backgrounds as a source of skill proficiency?
I'm aware of the BORING backgrounds. Did you notice that
two out of my three original examples had merchants with the Charisma
(Persuasion) skill? Of course you noticed it. I didn't bring up the Backgrounds, because not every guy who crafts and sells a magic item will automatically have the
"Guild Artisan" or
"Noble" background. I don't consider that to be a realistic assumption. After all, there are 13 different backgrounds in the Player's Handbook. :cool:
* That only a human character could start with a 16 Charisma, in apparent ignorance of other (even higher) racial bonuses to Charisma?
Not everyone rolls their ability scores. That's not a reasonable assumption on your part in "current year". And even if you do roll your stats, there is no guarantee of higher ability scores than what you'd receive with point buy. After all, the whole point of "rolling randomly" is that you don't know what you'll get.
* Your ignorance of how advantage/disadvantage combines (in the thread on 5e flaws)?
[/LIST]
Good grief. Are you still butthurt about my statement in the other thread? Namely this:
https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?41219-What-are-the-big-problems-in-5E/page28(14.) Advantage/disadvantage sucks. This system is binary. You either have (dis)advantage or you don't. Once your opponents fire arrows at you from [a.] multiple directions, [b.] from higher ground, and [c.] from behind cover.....there's virtually nothing you can do to negate that, because even if you hide behind a log (for cover).....you are only negating one form of advantage, therefore, your opponents will still have advantage. Would it have killed WoTC to create some sensible LAYERS to the advantage/disadvantage mechanic? This is annoying, stupid, and lazy game writing. And I'm tired of non-luck-based characters constantly engaging in rerolls. To Hell with that.
Ok, you've got me on that one.
You are right. I was wrong about the combination of advantage/disadvantage. I haven't played 5e in years, so I did forget this issue on the other thread. Granted, this issue you raise was in an
entirely different thread, but I'll still eat crow on that issue. Congratulations on your
(tiny) victory. However.....
.....somehow, that's even worse. One form of advantage nullifying all forms of disadvantage? One form of disadvantage nullifying all other forms of advantage? I was still right when I said the system is binary. You either have advantage, or you don't. You either have disadvantage, or you don't. There are still no meaningful layers to this game mechanic. There are no lesser/intermediate/greater forms of (dis)advantage. No nuance. So I was definitely on point about that.
These are familiar to anyone who has played the game. You have torn through the rule books looking desperately for your "I Win!" button, equipping your character with limitless wealth and optimized magic items, and are furious that you could not find it; that doesn't translate into a broken game.
As S'mon said, 5e plays better in practice than it reads; you should try it.
I still win, because I stopped playing 5e years ago.....since this game is objectively horrible. The crafting system is still an unholy abomination, where most buyers expect you to give away your labor
FOR FREE. Please don't defend that shit, because it's just indefensible.
[/HR]
I will revise my choice of optimal front man for a magic item manufacturing business. Bard, College of Lore, 14th level, 20 Charisma due to two ability score increases from a point buy 16 (with a race that gets a charisma bonus), 19 Intelligence from the Headband of Intellect (a trivial startup cost for a magic item manufacturer), proficiency (and perhaps expertise) in Investigation and expertise in Persuasion. With Bardic Inspiration on ability checks, the bard can very often make a DC20 Investigation check (even without expertise or help to get advantage); averaging 31 on persuasion checks and so finding the shady buyer at 150% of cost with a 21% chance each search - averaging a little under 5 searches (d10 days each).
The DM retains the potential adventuring hook of shadiness of the buyer, and consequences of ignoring events in the world to spend a lot of time crafting magic items, but I expect that a risk-free highly profitable business is not of interest to anyone except Sacrificial Lamb.
So now you're assuming that every single magical merchant has an
EXTREMELY HIGH-LEVEL BARD on his payroll? Is that right? By the way, a 14th-level character is a very high-level character. So you're telling us that most magical merchants have high-level Bards doing their bidding? Really? And we now also have to assume that all magical merchants are also wearing a
Headband of Intellect? Seriously?
What you propose is NOT REALISTIC OR PRACTICAL for most magical craftsman. :rolleyes:
You know this.
Never mind that it stills takes months, years, or decades to craft most magical bling.....and that you will
NEVER be able to convince half-a-dozen high-level Wizards to magically wank in a room for 8 hours a day, for almost a full year.....just so they can craft a shitty Frost Brand sword that is barely more efficient than a Sword +1. :rolleyes:
See how you keep adding shit that is mostly peripheral to the discussion, in order to
(futilely) make the base system work, when it obviously doesn't work? I see it. We were discussing what happens when most 11th-level characters craft a
Frost Brand sword, remember? And you should also remember that only "shady" buyers
(who might rob you) will even think of paying you
(something) for your labor......
which is completely ass-backwards. It is ethical people that are the ones who should want to pay you for your labor, not potential criminals.
When I do an evaluation of the magic item crafting system, I ask myself.....how much bullshit will most craftsmen
(of any level) have to endure in order to craft something....and how much bullshit will most craftsmen have to endure, in order to sell what they crafted? It's a legitimate question, because if the game mechanics create a situation that the PCs will not want to interact with, then it's a safe bet that NPCs will not want to interact with these game mechanics either.
In other words, there is still no incentive for most of these magic items in the 5e DMG to be crafted. :cool: