Well, I thank you Sacrificial Lamb for being honest. Enjoy your merry purgation!

Quote from: SHARK;1111163Greetings!

Excellent points, Doom! I agree, 3E simply put way too much magic engineering power in the hands of Players, which in turn forced the DM to provide the same Christmas Tree effect for all relevant NPC's, and then...yes, quite right. It snapped the game! I certainly don't want to see that happen to 5E, so I'm good with 5E having a stupid system. I am experienced enough I can embrace a modified AD&Desque approach, where the players access is relatively limited--and with constant DM supervision. I think that always worked in AD&D back in the day. I remember we all made shit that we really wanted--but you didn't have a constant Christmas Tree effect starting at level 3, like in 3E. So, Lamb's objections, while accurate to a point, I think are really chasing down jello--it isn't necessary, or even really beneficial--to have an uber-detailed system, ala 3E. In fact, that is actually a huge negative. Like I mentioned, on paper, you think you really *want* that uber-detailed, comprehensible system--but you don't. That's because the problems mushroom only after you embrace it.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Basically Prioritizing Precision Over Accuracy Leads to Heartache. You can be Precisely off the mark. Or you can be broadly Accurate. If you are truly running on all cylinders you may be so blessed to be both Accurate and Precise!

But D&D core rules, though the rules can pull towards an implied setting, are often put out to be setting-agnostic! So generic crafting rules don't bother me; they are a bunch of dials to be adjusted to one's own table's reception (to use an old TV metaphor). It would take a specific setting to warrant such bother with Precision after Accuracy, IME.

Like, if you gave me "Masque of the Red Death" for 5e and then gave very punitive crafting expectations -- to go along with the fear and corruption checks often accompanying magic -- I could totally see the value in precise crafting rules. But until then, why homogenize imagination in the setting-agnostic texts? It only serves a small-niche of persnickety customers, I think.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111132If you were a car manufacturer.....you know, I know, and we all know.....that you would NOT (as a matter of policy) regularly sell most of your cars for the same price (OR LESS) than what it cost you to build it. There is no financial enterprise on Earth that can survive long-term while doing that. Does not compute. Malfunction. :cool:

Mostly this conversation is boring :yawn: but this isn't necessarily true.

In Property/Casualty insurance (like Auto Insurance) there are companies that have run an underwriting loss for a long time.  Insurance has the advantage that you pay in advance and the company has your money until the time you have an accident.  If you pay for 6 months at $200/month they have $1200.  If you have an accident five months into your term that happens to cost $1250, you would think they've lost money.  But if they invested that money (and I promise you they did) they might have turned it into $1320.  Even with the cost of your accident exceeding the cost of your insurance, they may have made money.

The ratio of premiums to loss expenses is called the 'Combined Ratio'.  A combined ration of less than 100 (say 98) means an underwriting profit (they spend $0.98 for every $1.00 they earn in premiums) while a combined ratio of over 100 (say 102) means they spend $1.02 for every $1.00 they earn in premiums.

Here's a link to a list of Insurance companies and their 2017 combined ratio, along with their 2016 combined ratio.  In that world, it is absolutely possible to sell your product below your cost and still come out ahead.    

In terms of Item Manufacture, you're also looking at it wrong.  

The 'price' of an item is what you can get if you sell it when you've got an extra one.  That's basically 'back of the truck' price - you're unloading it to someone who knows a guy who knows a guy who wants one of these.  If you actually commission the item you want, you'll pay several times more.

Quote from: Doom;1111161That's exactly the point, the trivial item creation of 3e snapped the game.

Do that in 5e and the same thing will happen. If you know, for example, that you can just manufacture Gauntlets of Ogre Power or an appropriate IOUN stone without much effort, then you design your character from the get-go to have the stats that will optimize maximally the benefit of such an item. This level of system mastery reward, while fun to some, created a game (3e) where you no longer saw kids playing D&D at GenCon, because the game just required too much effort--I seem to remember a magazine showing pictures of the players, and they all had gray hair.

Well, in fairness to the item creation process in 3E, that wasn't the only thing that snapped the game.  A big part of it, yes, but there is enough blame to go around.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111160You do realize that this thread isn't just about magical "Elmer's Glue", right?

Based on what I've read it seemed to be one of the two key points in the thread so it seemed worth addressing.

Quote from: Bren;1111252Based on what I've read it seemed to be one of the two key points in the thread so it seemed worth addressing.

Put your racing shoes on. You'll need em to keep up with his goal post moving. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111160That's not in the book. :cool:

Not everything can be in the book; per Gronan, smiley or not, only a booger-eating moron is not able to understand that they must look beyond the book.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111132If you were a car manufacturer.....you know, I know, and we all know.....that you would NOT (as a matter of policy) regularly sell most of your cars for the same price (OR LESS) than what it cost you to build it. There is no financial enterprise on Earth that can survive long-term while doing that. Does not compute. Malfunction. :cool:

Your analogy is wrong. Player characters crafting magic items are not car manufacturers. Car manufacturers have supply chains and benefit from economies of scale; PCs making items are mostly doing hobby work that they did not primarily train for. How much would it cost to make a new Ford Escort in your home workshop with materials from an hardware store? Do you really think it will sell for what a new Ford Escort at a dealership would? The items PCs are selling are generally found items; for a car, this would be the equivalent of "I found this car in a ditch. I think the previous owner is dead, and I don't have a title. As far as I can tell, it runs fine, but it might have issues I don't know about. What can I get for it?" Items from adventures may have curses, unpleasant properties (most things from Curse of Strahd, I think), sentience, relatives of former owners bent on revenge, patrons who gifted it and expect future service from whoever has the item. The buying table reflects this, just as a used car selling table would.

As to "nobody would make item X", the magic item crafting rules are for PCs. It is established in the core rule books that NPCs follow different rules (the HPs for NPCs with levels follow size, not class; NPCs with class levels miss out on at least some class features) but sometimes they have unexplained abilities that PCs cannot get, and crafting might be one. So there could be a guy somewhere who can make sovereign glue in a month (living next to the guy who makes oil of slipperiness in just under a month); a monastery that pens scrolls in a fraction of the time; or whatever. There could be stores run by NPCs that profitably make and sell magic items - if the DM chooses that option (and is not a B-EM).

In fairness, I would prefer that rarity/cost of items be far more granular, and the base price for selling an item should be higher for an item you made, and slightly higher if it has a known provenance (and lower if you got it in Barovia). Then you could make a living selling your own work to honest buyers, if you or someone you hired was good at finding buyers. If you want to make a profit on a full time business, you could turn to the running a business table; it gives an average profit to a full time business (slightly) even if the daily costs are 25GP like magic item crafting. The running a business table has no factoring in of levels, background, skills, investment, daily expenses or anything; I'm surprised this is not a bigger issue for you, but you're clearly just peeved that you can't effortlessly have exactly the awesome magic items you want.

QuoteI know you understand this. Everyone on this forum understands this. If the authors of 5e wanted to prevent PCs from crafting magic items, they could have just said:

"Player characters cannot craft magic items."

That would have been a more honest position for the authors of 5e to take.

Instead they said "Magic items are the DM's purview, so you decide how they fall into the party's possession." For modularity, they go on to give an option for crafting magic items (although all of the DMG downtime activities are optional: "you can make some or all of the following additional activities available as options"). The option makes common and uncommon items not unreasonable for PCs to craft.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1111187Mostly this conversation is boring :yawn: but this isn't necessarily true.

In Property/Casualty insurance (like Auto Insurance) there are companies that have run an underwriting loss for a long time.  Insurance has the advantage that you pay in advance and the company has your money until the time you have an accident.  If you pay for 6 months at $200/month they have $1200.  If you have an accident five months into your term that happens to cost $1250, you would think they've lost money.  But if they invested that money (and I promise you they did) they might have turned it into $1320.  Even with the cost of your accident exceeding the cost of your insurance, they may have made money.

The ratio of premiums to loss expenses is called the 'Combined Ratio'.  A combined ration of less than 100 (say 98) means an underwriting profit (they spend $0.98 for every $1.00 they earn in premiums) while a combined ratio of over 100 (say 102) means they spend $1.02 for every $1.00 they earn in premiums.

Here's a link to a list of Insurance companies and their 2017 combined ratio, along with their 2016 combined ratio.  In that world, it is absolutely possible to sell your product below your cost and still come out ahead.    

In terms of Item Manufacture, you're also looking at it wrong.  

The 'price' of an item is what you can get if you sell it when you've got an extra one.  That's basically 'back of the truck' price - you're unloading it to someone who knows a guy who knows a guy who wants one of these.  If you actually commission the item you want, you'll pay several times more.

The conversation is boring, because 5e is boring....which is part of my point. Most of these (weak) magical items are sold for between 10% to 50% of what it costs to craft them. You're not crafting a physical item when you provide car insurance. Insurance is not a physical product. I really don't want to get into a discussion of what insurance really is, but in some ways.....it's more like a service (or a promise for something that might happen), rather than an actual good or product. So that analogy outright FAILS.

And by the way, there is NOTHING in the DMG that says that you'll pay several times the listed price if it's deliberately commissioned. It's not there. This is just more handwavium, and handwavium does not help us when discussing how the 5e rules actually work.

Handwavium is not allowed in a rules discussion. :cool:

Let's also remember that magic items are not mass-produced, and there's no indication that the merchant is any more likely to invest the money that you gave him for a sword +1.....than he is to invest the money you gave him for a normal sword.

Doesn't anyone on this website read what the 5e rules actually say?

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111328Handwavium is not allowed in a rules discussion. :cool:

I think you keep missing relevant chunks of rules.  

What do you THINK the prices in the DMG are supposed to represent?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1111331I think you keep missing relevant chunks of rules.  

What do you THINK the prices in the DMG are supposed to represent?

Is this a trick question? What do you think I think the prices in the DMG are supposed to represent?

If I craft a Frost Brand sword (a "Very Rare" item), the creation cost is 50,000 gp. So is the "base price". If I try to sell it, here's a recalculated makeshift table that determines how much money people offer me for it.

Quoted100 roll_______Buyer(s) Lowball You With...

40 or lower_____10% of the base price [5,000 gp]
41-60__________25% of the base price [12,500 gp] and 50% of the base price from a "shady buyer" [25,000 gp]
61-100_________50% of the base price [25,000 gp] and 100% of the base price from a "shady buyer" [50,000 gp]

Elf: "Hello. I'm selling this Frost Brand sword for 100,000 gold pieces."
Dwarven Bartender: "Yeah? I'll give you 5,000 gold pieces for it, elf."
Elf: "Go massage a cockatrice, dwarf." :mad:

Do you get the point? Are you now convinced that I get the point? Look at the tables on page 130 of the DMG, or just look at page 2 (post #11) of this thread. There is a strong implication that potential buyers know how much it costs you to craft a magic item, and yet will completely low-ball you anyway.....in the most insulting way humanly possible.

5e has awful writing. :cool:

Quote from: rawma;1111322If you want to make a profit on a full time business, you could turn to the running a business table; it gives an average profit to a full time business (slightly) even if the daily costs are 25GP like magic item crafting.

Yes, for actually running a business making & selling magic items, you use the running-a-business rules. I use those rules for my son's snake cult 'high priest' PC (think dragonborn Thulsa Doom) - his cult brings in some cash, which he uses to eg brew potions to turn eager cultists into Yuan Ti Broodguard. From what I recall a business can generate net a couple hundred gp a month, which works ok with crafting at 25gp value/day. You might craft several common items or one uncommon, almost always to-order. IMCs healing potions are pretty much the only thing that gets made for speculative sale, because there is enough demand, and because temples like to keep a supply on hand. A crafter (PC or NPC) can make an Uncommon like gauntlets of ogre power in 20 work-days at a cost of 500gp, IMCs they typically sell to the commissioner of the item for at least 1000gp paid in advance, so 500gp profit, though they could make a 5gp/day comfortable living wage at 600gp. I assume they're probably not crafting full time, and 1 Uncommon/month is more typical.

From what I recall, PCs do commission items when available; gauntlets of ogre power & goggles of night are the most common, along with +1 weapons and +1 shields. And of course PCs buy tons of 50gp healing potions.

With Rares taking 200 work-days per DMG and 5000gp, they are of course - rare. Very occasionally I may see something like +1 full plate armour crafted if there is extensive downtime; and once the NPC Archmage Dyson Logos using his wizard tower was able to craft a Very Rare for a PC in 200 days, at x10 standard rate.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111328The conversation is boring, because 5e is boring....which is part of my point. Most of these (weak) magical items are sold for between 10% to 50% of what it costs to craft them. You're not crafting a physical item when you provide car insurance. Insurance is not a physical product. I really don't want to get into a discussion of what insurance really is, but in some ways.....it's more like a service (or a promise for something that might happen), rather than an actual good or product. So that analogy outright FAILS.

And by the way, there is NOTHING in the DMG that says that you'll pay several times the listed price if it's deliberately commissioned. It's not there. This is just more handwavium, and handwavium does not help us when discussing how the 5e rules actually work.

Handwavium is not allowed in a rules discussion. :cool:

Let's also remember that magic items are not mass-produced, and there's no indication that the merchant is any more likely to invest the money that you gave him for a sword +1.....than he is to invest the money you gave him for a normal sword.

Doesn't anyone on this website read what the 5e rules actually say?

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111334Is this a trick question? What do you think I think the prices in the DMG are supposed to represent?

If I craft a Frost Brand sword (a "Very Rare" item), the creation cost is 50,000 gp. So is the "base price". If I try to sell it, here's a recalculated makeshift table that determines how much money people offer me for it.



Elf: "Hello. I'm selling this Frost Brand sword for 100,000 gold pieces."
Dwarven Bartender: "Yeah? I'll give you 5,000 gold pieces for it, elf."
Elf: "Go massage a cockatrice, dwarf." :mad:

Do you get the point? Are you now convinced that I get the point? Look at the tables on page 130 of the DMG, or just look at page 2 (post #11) of this thread. There is a strong implication that potential buyers know how much it costs you to craft a magic item, and yet will completely low-ball you anyway.....in the most insulting way humanly possible.

5e has awful writing. :cool:

Ok, a lot to unpack here, so let's go bit by bit:

"5e is boring":  This is subjective, not objective.  You can feel that way, and it's valid for you, I feel differently, which is valid for me.  In and of itself such statements are largely meaningless to discuss, outside of the context of 'what would be better'.  I've already listed how I improve crafting for my campaign, and it works well for my purposes.  What I haven't seen yet is what you would prefer, what you consider to be Good crafting rules, what you're looking for.  To me, that's a lot more interesting than a discussion of why you feel it's bad.

"Most magic items are sold for between 10 and 50% of what it costs to craft them":  This is just a blatant lie, or a misunderstanding of the rules.  Now, on 130, it says "For each salable item, the character makes a DC 20 Intelligence (Investigation) check to find buyers ... on a successful check, a buyer is found after a number of days based on the item's rarity ... the subsequent total determines what the buyer offers to pay for the item".  So you take 1-10 days (based on rarity and roll), make a Charisma (Persuasion) check, add a modifier based on the item's rarity which ranges from +10 to -20, and roll on the chart to determine what the buyer offers.  Now, let's for a moment ignore that 135 says "As the DM, you determine the value of an individual magic item based on its rarity.  Suggested values are provided ... ".  We'll also ignore 136 where it says "See chapter 6, 'between adventures', for one way to handle selling magic items" (emphasis mine) and 235 where it says "Rules enable you and your players to have fun at the table.  The rules serve you, not vice versa."  We'll instead treat the chart as the only possible value for magic items and as a straightjacket which must be abided by in all circumstances.  This is wrong, of course, but we'll accept it as your premise, as even then you're way off.

Given an average check of 10, a common magic item would have (after 2.5 days of searching, on average) a buyer found which is offering 1/4 the base price, and a shady buyer offering 1/2 the base price, 20% of the time; they would find a buyer offering 1/2 the base price and a shady buyer offering the full base price 40% of the time, they'd find a (non-shady) buyer offering the full base price 10% of the time, and 30% of the time they'd find a shady buyer offering 1/5x the base price.  Now, looking at 129 but again ignoring where it says "You are free to adjust the costs to better suit your campaign" and still treating the rules as a straightjacket, the base cost is the same as the crafting cost for the item.  This is the most important part though- if you don't like what they are offering, under No Circumstances are you compelled to sell to the first buyer(s) which come along!  No part of those rules prevent you from saying 'eh no thanks' and just searching for another buyer!  It may take on average 8-10 days to find someone offering 1.5x the base price, but no part of the rules prevents you from spending that time to do so, which means your assertion that the majority of the time they are selling for between 10% and 1/2 what it costs to make is both factually wrong for common magic items and check results, and also relies on the crafter literally selling to the first person who comes along, regardless of the profitability of doing so.  If they do, that's on them, not on the rules, because the rules do not compel that result.

Now sure, the average result shifts with rarity, but it also shifts with your charisma check, and since you need to be 11th level to make very rare magic items, it's disingenuous to pretend that they would still have an average charisma (persuasion) check result of 10 if crafting magic items is their passion.  More importantly, as you can keep looking for buyers until you find one, there is nothing which prevents you from making 40 checks and spending 220 days looking for that elusive 1.5x base price buyer, if you need to do so, after crafting an item for 55 years.  As such at no rarity value is your assertion true, even given straightjacket rules and fixed values, which is again specifically not the intent of the rules as written.  

"There is nothing in the DMG which says you'll pay several times the listed price if it's deliberately commissioned": If you're talking about players commissioning NPC magic items, sure there is.  Creating magic items requires daily spellcasting.  As detailed in Spellcasting Services in the PHB, even level 1-2 spells might cost between 10-50 GP for one time spellcasting.  No established rate exists, but the higher the level of the spell, the more expensive it is.  As such a savvy businessman NPC would be running you daily costs for spellcasting, plus material costs, plus lifestyle expenses, all within the confines of the rules as written, which could be 100GP+ very easily just for an uncommon magic item.  Given that they're making progress at 25GP daily rates, this means you'd be paying 4x+ the listed cost.

If you're talking about the players being commissioned to make magic items, the same applies in reverse.  Ignoring for a moment the option of simply finding a buyer beforehand by randomly searching for one, and only starting the crafting once the buyer is found.  Players interact with non-player CHARACTERS, not charts.  130 just offers you a chart for putting characters in front of the player.  The base rules indicate that the creation of magic items are rare, as magic items themselves are rare, and a spellcaster offering services is rare, with no established rates in place but rather individually negotiated.  As the player would be both a spellcaster offering their services AND one of the rare crafters of magic items, it is not just expected but is specifically and explicitly spelled out in the rules that they would be individually negotiating their rate of pay with the person commissioning the creation of the item, and at that point the rate of pay and thus final amount paid for the item creation would be between them and the DM, as it is intended to be.

"Handwavium is not allowed in a rules discussion":  That's a tall ask, when the rules specifically and explicitly state, multiple times and in multiple places, that the intent of the rules is to serve as a raw baseline from which the DM adjudicates whatever works for their table and actually creates the most fun.  If you're indicating the baseline does not create fun, given that context, how can you be surprised when folks point out that it's specifically meant to be adjusted if it's not creating fun?

"Here's an adjusted chart":  Your adjusted chart assumes a Charisma (Persuasion) Check result of zero.  That's physically impossible to obtain, and given that they must be level 11 to craft the item you're using as an example, if crafting magic items and then finding random buyers to purchase them is their profession, it's not unfair to expect them to be proficient in that check.  Even given zero other bonuses, so given average charisma and no help with it (which would be odd for someone who can craft magic items, since if they need to they can just craft charisma enhancing items, but again, we'll roll worst case for your benefit) that's an average check result of 14.  The proper chart is instead:

d100 roll with average check ___ Buyer(s) lowball you with...
26 or lower __________________ 10% of base price
27-46 ______________________  50% of base price
47-96 ______________________  100% of base price
97-100 _____________________ 150% of base price

And again, that's after d10 (average 5.5 days) of searching.

"Potential buyers know how much it costs you to craft a magic item":  A Baseless assertion completely unfounded by the rules.  Rather, after X amount of time, you find a random guy who is like "sure, I'll buy the wares you are hawking, here's how much I'll offer", and the amount offered is indeed derived on the backend from the "base value" of the item, but that is not to say that the NPC actually knows such a thing, it's just how the book determines their offer.  This is again based on selling found magic items, and is largely a function of 1) most people aren't that wealthy, so what they can afford to offer is constrained, and 2) most wealthy people don't actually need the magic items in question.  Finding a buyer for such an expensive, and rare item, by randomly searching, is intentionally a difficult and time consuming process.  

The fact that it may take a year to find someone willing to pay more than it costs to craft an item is NOT an indication that they know the cost to craft the item, but rather is indicative of an unfavorable market wherein they're just not worth as much to the average person as they are to an adventurer.  Why the hell would a merchant noble who will never enter battle shell out 50k+ for a sword they're intending to hang on their wall?  This is why, indeed, under these rules, your presupposed method of crafting an item, THEN running out into the world at large and trying to find someone to buy the random thing you made, is not a wise one, and is not excessively profitable under the rules as written.

Quote from: Giant Octopodes;1111386Ok, a lot to unpack here, so let's go bit by bit:

"5e is boring":  This is subjective, not objective.  You can feel that way, and it's valid for you, I feel differently, which is valid for me.  In and of itself such statements are largely meaningless to discuss, outside of the context of 'what would be better'.  I've already listed how I improve crafting for my campaign, and it works well for my purposes.  What I haven't seen yet is what you would prefer, what you consider to be Good crafting rules, what you're looking for.  To me, that's a lot more interesting than a discussion of why you feel it's bad.

"Most magic items are sold for between 10 and 50% of what it costs to craft them":  This is just a blatant lie, or a misunderstanding of the rules.  Now, on 130, it says "For each salable item, the character makes a DC 20 Intelligence (Investigation) check to find buyers ... on a successful check, a buyer is found after a number of days based on the item's rarity ... the subsequent total determines what the buyer offers to pay for the item".  So you take 1-10 days (based on rarity and roll), make a Charisma (Persuasion) check, add a modifier based on the item's rarity which ranges from +10 to -20, and roll on the chart to determine what the buyer offers.  Now, let's for a moment ignore that 135 says "As the DM, you determine the value of an individual magic item based on its rarity.  Suggested values are provided ... ".  We'll also ignore 136 where it says "See chapter 6, 'between adventures', for one way to handle selling magic items" (emphasis mine) and 235 where it says "Rules enable you and your players to have fun at the table.  The rules serve you, not vice versa."  We'll instead treat the chart as the only possible value for magic items and as a straightjacket which must be abided by in all circumstances.  This is wrong, of course, but we'll accept it as your premise, as even then you're way off.

Given an average check of 10, a common magic item would have (after 2.5 days of searching, on average) a buyer found which is offering 1/4 the base price, and a shady buyer offering 1/2 the base price, 20% of the time; they would find a buyer offering 1/2 the base price and a shady buyer offering the full base price 40% of the time, they'd find a (non-shady) buyer offering the full base price 10% of the time, and 30% of the time they'd find a shady buyer offering 1/5x the base price.  Now, looking at 129 but again ignoring where it says "You are free to adjust the costs to better suit your campaign" and still treating the rules as a straightjacket, the base cost is the same as the crafting cost for the item.  This is the most important part though- if you don't like what they are offering, under No Circumstances are you compelled to sell to the first buyer(s) which come along!  No part of those rules prevent you from saying 'eh no thanks' and just searching for another buyer!  It may take on average 8-10 days to find someone offering 1.5x the base price, but no part of the rules prevents you from spending that time to do so, which means your assertion that the majority of the time they are selling for between 10% and 1/2 what it costs to make is both factually wrong for common magic items and check results, and also relies on the crafter literally selling to the first person who comes along, regardless of the profitability of doing so.  If they do, that's on them, not on the rules, because the rules do not compel that result.

Now sure, the average result shifts with rarity, but it also shifts with your charisma check, and since you need to be 11th level to make very rare magic items, it's disingenuous to pretend that they would still have an average charisma (persuasion) check result of 10 if crafting magic items is their passion.  More importantly, as you can keep looking for buyers until you find one, there is nothing which prevents you from making 40 checks and spending 220 days looking for that elusive 1.5x base price buyer, if you need to do so, after crafting an item for 55 years.  As such at no rarity value is your assertion true, even given straightjacket rules and fixed values, which is again specifically not the intent of the rules as written.  

"There is nothing in the DMG which says you'll pay several times the listed price if it's deliberately commissioned": If you're talking about players commissioning NPC magic items, sure there is.  Creating magic items requires daily spellcasting.  As detailed in Spellcasting Services in the PHB, even level 1-2 spells might cost between 10-50 GP for one time spellcasting.  No established rate exists, but the higher the level of the spell, the more expensive it is.  As such a savvy businessman NPC would be running you daily costs for spellcasting, plus material costs, plus lifestyle expenses, all within the confines of the rules as written, which could be 100GP+ very easily just for an uncommon magic item.  Given that they're making progress at 25GP daily rates, this means you'd be paying 4x+ the listed cost.

If you're talking about the players being commissioned to make magic items, the same applies in reverse.  Ignoring for a moment the option of simply finding a buyer beforehand by randomly searching for one, and only starting the crafting once the buyer is found.  Players interact with non-player CHARACTERS, not charts.  130 just offers you a chart for putting characters in front of the player.  The base rules indicate that the creation of magic items are rare, as magic items themselves are rare, and a spellcaster offering services is rare, with no established rates in place but rather individually negotiated.  As the player would be both a spellcaster offering their services AND one of the rare crafters of magic items, it is not just expected but is specifically and explicitly spelled out in the rules that they would be individually negotiating their rate of pay with the person commissioning the creation of the item, and at that point the rate of pay and thus final amount paid for the item creation would be between them and the DM, as it is intended to be.

"Handwavium is not allowed in a rules discussion":  That's a tall ask, when the rules specifically and explicitly state, multiple times and in multiple places, that the intent of the rules is to serve as a raw baseline from which the DM adjudicates whatever works for their table and actually creates the most fun.  If you're indicating the baseline does not create fun, given that context, how can you be surprised when folks point out that it's specifically meant to be adjusted if it's not creating fun?

"Here's an adjusted chart":  Your adjusted chart assumes a Charisma (Persuasion) Check result of zero.  That's physically impossible to obtain, and given that they must be level 11 to craft the item you're using as an example, if crafting magic items and then finding random buyers to purchase them is their profession, it's not unfair to expect them to be proficient in that check.  Even given zero other bonuses, so given average charisma and no help with it (which would be odd for someone who can craft magic items, since if they need to they can just craft charisma enhancing items, but again, we'll roll worst case for your benefit) that's an average check result of 14.  The proper chart is instead:

d100 roll with average check ___ Buyer(s) lowball you with...
26 or lower __________________ 10% of base price
27-46 ______________________  50% of base price
47-96 ______________________  100% of base price
97-100 _____________________ 150% of base price

And again, that's after d10 (average 5.5 days) of searching.

"Potential buyers know how much it costs you to craft a magic item":  A Baseless assertion completely unfounded by the rules.  Rather, after X amount of time, you find a random guy who is like "sure, I'll buy the wares you are hawking, here's how much I'll offer", and the amount offered is indeed derived on the backend from the "base value" of the item, but that is not to say that the NPC actually knows such a thing, it's just how the book determines their offer.  This is again based on selling found magic items, and is largely a function of 1) most people aren't that wealthy, so what they can afford to offer is constrained, and 2) most wealthy people don't actually need the magic items in question.  Finding a buyer for such an expensive, and rare item, by randomly searching, is intentionally a difficult and time consuming process.  

The fact that it may take a year to find someone willing to pay more than it costs to craft an item is NOT an indication that they know the cost to craft the item, but rather is indicative of an unfavorable market wherein they're just not worth as much to the average person as they are to an adventurer.  Why the hell would a merchant noble who will never enter battle shell out 50k+ for a sword they're intending to hang on their wall?  This is why, indeed, under these rules, your presupposed method of crafting an item, THEN running out into the world at large and trying to find someone to buy the random thing you made, is not a wise one, and is not excessively profitable under the rules as written.

Greetings!

Excellent analysis, Giant Octopodes! Very nice, indeed!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

LOL I love this thread. 5e's crafting is HORRIBLE.

Giant Octopodes - Pretty good analysis. The levels of wankery for the rules only solidifies the very problem with D&D since 3e - that the settings of 5e rarely  correspond to the assumptions of its own rules. Your analysis only shows how silly it is. ZERO of this strikes me as fun, or even contextually good mechanics. They show 5e's lazy design in this arena. But I also don't think this was seen as an important "thing" for WotC for a specific reason: they don't focus their products on sandbox-style gaming more than "adventure path" super-modules. This is a throw-away sub-system *at best*.

Crafting is a big deal in any games, as I run sandbox-style campaigns and I'm pretty strict on the proliferation of magic-items/gear as informed by the context of my setting.

The problem with 5e's "crafting system" is not just that it's shitty, it is. The work necessitated to create something I would use, requires more work than I'm willing to put in for 5e. And given the other sub-systems I think are flawed, crafting itself comes as lower-priority. There are certainly other systems that do crafting poorly - Savage Worlds for instance. Where they even *have* crafting rules it's on a setting-by-setting basis. But because the core-rules are so well designed to be largely context-free, it's radically easier and less work to make a unique sub-system for crafting from scratch as needed.

5e is much harder to do that because of how the mainline rules are set up.

Quote from: tenbones;1111415LOL I love this thread. 5e's crafting is HORRIBLE.

Giant Octopodes - Pretty good analysis. The levels of wankery for the rules only solidifies the very problem with D&D since 3e - that the settings of 5e rarely  correspond to the assumptions of its own rules. Your analysis only shows how silly it is. ZERO of this strikes me as fun, or even contextually good mechanics. They show 5e's lazy design in this arena. But I also don't think this was seen as an important "thing" for WotC for a specific reason: they don't focus their products on sandbox-style gaming more than "adventure path" super-modules. This is a throw-away sub-system *at best*.

Crafting is a big deal in any games, as I run sandbox-style campaigns and I'm pretty strict on the proliferation of magic-items/gear as informed by the context of my setting.

The problem with 5e's "crafting system" is not just that it's shitty, it is. The work necessitated to create something I would use, requires more work than I'm willing to put in for 5e. And given the other sub-systems I think are flawed, crafting itself comes as lower-priority. There are certainly other systems that do crafting poorly - Savage Worlds for instance. Where they even *have* crafting rules it's on a setting-by-setting basis. But because the core-rules are so well designed to be largely context-free, it's radically easier and less work to make a unique sub-system for crafting from scratch as needed.

5e is much harder to do that because of how the mainline rules are set up.

Greetings!

You know, my friend, I was working on some campaign stuff for my world, and I was developing this whole civilization that dominated a vast continent beyond a huge mountain range, and dense, ancient forests. *Vast* Imagine a land like Siberia, beyond the Ural Mountains. Non-Human humanoids, with teal and green skin, large, pointed ears, larger, somewhat *slanted* eyes, graceful and athletic physiques. Primitive tribal societies, divided into distinct tribes, and led by powerful chieftains, and groups of shamans. These peoples have their own pantheon of deities, and live entirely in harmony with their natural environment. They embrace using magic in nearly everything, and craft special items which harness the power of nature, plants, animals, insects and birds. There are also a variety of prehistoric animals which live throughout their wilderness homeland, as well as numerous kinds of insects, birds, fish and amphibians. The region also nurtures several diseases, which while occasionally challenging to the native peoples, are especially dangerous to outsiders and foreigners.

In creating many magical items used by people in their society, embracing different shamanistic and pagan traditions and elements from our own history, I realized that such a people exist within a framework that views magic, spirituality, and the supernatural in very different ways from what is customary in the West of our own real world thinking. Taking that into account for influencing the game, it occured to me that such a people access magic, and magical items, almost *routinely*

I then realized that within the context of such a humanoid culture, where they embraced and cultivated spirituality and magical skills and rituals on a constant basis, that a huge variety of enchanted items were therefore ordinary and normal.

--A War Spear that is blessed to bite enemies with a lion head
--An Herbalist's Basket that stores and refreshes herbs placed within
--A maiden's cosmetics which make her more beautiful and alluring
--Tribal Jewelry for either men or women which benefit senses, or social interactions in some manner
--A Fishing Net which makes the weight of fish carried to be lighter, while also increasing the number of fish caught within the net
--Medicinal Salves that increase healing
--A Horn which stores and maintains a large weight of berries, fresh and good, while also weighing less.

As imagined, this kind of dynamic runs counter to much of the magic item assumptions within 5E. The culture has an economy that is based on honour, bartering, and general trade needs, and while profit is appreciated and desired, their primitive economic and trade system is just that, a barter system, heavily influenced by spiritual and tribal values, customs, as well as taboos, seasons, and so on, and is not a modern, capitalist or mercantilistic system. I wouldn't even know how to gauge the "price" of such items in their culture, because their culture doesn't use a coin-based economy.

What do you think, my friend? How would such a system and culture be integrated or interpreted within the 5E magical economic system?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK