Quote from: Ocule on December 30, 2021, 11:43:45 AM

Quote from: Abraxus on December 30, 2021, 10:06:55 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 30, 2021, 09:25:04 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 30, 2021, 01:33:06 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 28, 2021, 08:05:33 PM
The last thing I need at my table is some pretentious twat pretending that they're oh-so-inscrutable when trying to role-play something like an elf.

Then you shouldn't let people play elves.

I think I'll keep doing my thing and ignore your advice on this. Thanks anyway.

Agreed and seconded.

For someone who claims to be more open minded than the average SJW, Pundit sure CS likes to channel his brand of onetruewayism. It stopped being cute, funny and more importantly interesting a nano second ago.

I mean there is some truth to the idea of wanting to play Demi humans and non human races as more alien, otherwise why not just run a human only game.

It's a good question, and one I've thought about often.

I like near-human races. I like that they are not human, but human enough so that they are relateable.

The question of alien-ness falls apart for me. All the alien races I've seen in fiction are still based on human imagination, and so are terribly limited by our experiences. Portraying a really alien mentality often runs towards "anti-human", some opposite of human behavior, which is still based on our human behavior instead of one that really feels alien.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 28, 2021, 07:25:12 PM
That's the way to do it, to incorporate certain "rules" for the behavior of "playable" non-humans, that don't make any apparent sense. Like it the medieval stories of elves, sometimes they are clearly alien and terrifying to those who encounter them, and sometimes they make themselves look like normal humans... but in their actions there's just always weird stuff they're doing or that happens around them. There are things they treat like absolute unbendable rules of reality, that we can't see as anything other than nonsensical behavior (like how Tamlane has the entire army of the Elven Queen after him, and yet when his mortal girlfriend throws her cloak over him they all have to give up and fuck off, even though he's right there, not invisible or anything, and the Elven Queen is still able to curse his girlfriend to die).
You could interpret those things as an absolutely unbreakable taboo, but what if they're not? What if they're the product of a perception of reality totally different from our own, where the "laws" that apply to them are as unbreakable as the consequences of running face-first into a brick wall would be for us?

And speaking of which, of course, there are a lot of things that we MUST do which the Elves don't have to, or can just do differently, but also sometimes to us it seems like they must do as well.

The 2e D&D books like Skills and Powers and especially Complete Book of Humanoids tried to introduce things like that. Traits that a species might have, superstitions and beliefs as well. The Superstition system alone is great for adding some variety to non-human beings. Allowing for their lack of experience, alien outlook, or pure chance things that build into a belief. Some of the examples that drift into the alien would be like seeing a certain type of armour triggers the positive or negative belief. Like Clainmail is seen as lucky but leather is not. And so on.

Depending on the time or region theres some crossover between the faerie folk and the undead in some otheir actions. Like some fae have to count grains of sand or salt just like some vampires do. Or the classic cold iron or silver.

In Forgotten Realms for example it is stated that elves need to do their daily meditative rest period as that is when they sort and retain memories as they do not remember things like humans do. The other recall was that at a certain age elves go blind and can only thereafter see the hidden elven paradise and feel compelled to find a way there. Or some of the depictions of FR elves approach to magic. Especially high level magic.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 30, 2021, 08:24:39 PM
The question of alien-ness falls apart for me. All the alien races I've seen in fiction are still based on human imagination, and so are terribly limited by our experiences. Portraying a really alien mentality often runs towards "anti-human", some opposite of human behavior, which is still based on our human behavior instead of one that really feels alien.

It's really, really, really, really, really hard to write a good alien.

But there is a spectrum, which ranges from humans with pointy ears (most mainstream cosmopolitan fantasies and most commercial science fiction), to humans with pointy ears and an exaggerated human trait (like the Ferengi, or many dwarves), to humans with a longer or more distant perspective (Tolkien elves, Clarke's Overlords), to aliens with a fundamentally different physical structure and cultures (Niven's Kzinti, Puppeters, or Moties would qualify, and so would most conceptions of the fae), to stores that largely avoid the question and treat aliens as fundamentally unknowable (the visitors in Roadside Picnic or the Quintans of Lem's Fiasco; in fantasy this is typically reserved for transcendental beings).

For RPGs, anything beyond an exaggerated human trait is hard, because it would require major buy-in from the player.

QuoteThen you shouldn't let people play elves.

Or you can play Tolkien like elves, or even Germanic Ljusalfar, rather than inscrutable borderline demonic Faeries of English folklore.

Quote
I'd personally love to hear specifics on how to enforce non human concepts mechanically. Alien enough to not be human but not so alien they're unplayable

Well there are various games with Psychology/Morality rules, where game can push player actions towards certain end - and for instance he needs to pass Willpower saves to work against own nature, and is punished by game for doing so - in mental and spiritual anguish.

You can do the same with human Psychology - if you let's say choose loyalty to some cause as your trait - you can be reward with bonus for being faithful (as it's great motivation for your PC) but punish if you wanted to break such loyalty (which simulates mental anguish of someone who needs to break well estabilished bonds of loyalty and comraderie).

White Wolf games have plenty of rules for the so called "alien" aspects of whatevers. But most players tend to ignore it as it gets in the way all too often of having fun being a werewolf or faerie or ghost or whatever.

Rules that take away control of the character from the player can be a definite bone of contention for some. Frequency of triggering these moments though can be the real thorn.

Indeed.
But what can I say. If any alienisation is problem for player - maybe truly just play human.

I don't think one needs to play elf as Brittish folklor faerie, especially considering it's relatively late peasant folklor that already was distanced far from myths that give it birth, but still elf should mean something. (Then of course one could also apply some psychological compulsions to human characters)

I tend to make my non-humans STRONGLY tied into their relevant cultural norms so those cultural components act as something of a 'touchstone' for RP of that race. It helps define what is standard for them and, therefore, also defines exceptions. My Babylonian/Egyptian-inspired sun-worshiping Hobgoblins are DRENCHED in the peculiarities and habits of their culture and so the hobgoblin player in my game was strongly defined in many many ways by his interactions with those cultural moors.

Similarly, my elves are split into two castes...high elves that are capable of wielding magic and huffing a powdered form of ley (as in energy from leylines) to extend their lives for centuries that act as the absolute ruling class and second-class citizen non-magic capable standard elves that drop dead around 35. With elves so strongly defined by this caste split, it naturally reinforces a very tangible sense of how different these beings are from the normal human culture my players exist in.

Of course, that's all dependent on a player giving a damn about 'character' elements...but that's a given.

This at least helps create a sense of 'difference' between the portrayal of the races because I don't think there's necessarily many good ways to get to that 'mechanically' and I don't think the juice would even be worth the squeeze

But the question is to what degree let's say those Egyptian-Babylonian hobgoblins are essentially different from human beings of simmilar cultures?
With elves - sure there are aspects you described that are not really human-like.

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 08, 2022, 09:25:41 AM
But the question is to what degree let's say those Egyptian-Babylonian hobgoblins are essentially different from human beings of simmilar cultures?
With elves - sure there are aspects you described that are not really human-like.

Good question

In generally, the difference is to the extent the other races are adherent to those cultural norms. I embrace the 'humans are the grab bag' mentality baked into their design in the various editions. Humans are far more varied on average by a huge factor. Other races? Not so much at all.

The PC that was a hobgoblin smith that actually began second guessing the brutal hobgoblin culture was so noteworthy as WEIRD that it was worth being noted by servants of gods. Hobgoblins simply DO NOT deviate from their Lawful Evil culture except in rare and noteworthy cases. Where-as humans were far more likely to have a wider variety of outlooks within a culture while also having varied human cultures in general, the non-human races do not.

Dwarves are dwarves are dwarves and are overwhelmingly defined by the traits in their culture in their case this included the on-going writing of epic poems that acted as an autobiography that would be sent back to the grand libraries that acted as dwarven 'cemeteries' where one might read about the life of almost any past dwarf. This is so integral to their culture, they even do this for stillborn children or children that die young with parents writing out fictional accounts of the entire life they would have wanted for their child as part of the grieving process. This concept dominates dwarven life and culture and is essentially IMPOSSIBLE for a dwarf player to totally disregard as a part of dwarves.

Yes the none-humans of course still had personalities, but those personalities would invariably play off of or within the confines of their culture where-as humans might never meaningfully be tied to their cultural background in any big way. It worked to reinforce that "oh yeah that weird thing is a big part of X race" whenever interacted with.

This would include very inhuman outlooks on morality as well. The hobgoblins, for example, have essentially no familial concern for their offspring outside of raising them to serve within their culture and child sacrifice was just accepted as normal as part of appeasing the brutal god-king that ruled them. The elves? Their caste system was absolute and inhuman (by most peoples standards) in how stark the difference was between high elves and standard elves with high elves not even being punished for the deaths of the 'lessers' whose short lives are seen as all-but valueless when compared to the multiple centuries a high-elf could live. That high elves and elves saw this as 'normal' made it all the more alien to the players. Now, that didn't mean the high elves were sociopathic murderers that killed wantonly because, largely speaking, the elves as a people were neutral to good...but just the idea that this wasn't even a crime was something that really highlighted just how different elves were from regular humans even though it never came up in the game.

Things like cultural norms including laws and treatment within those laws are a great way to really get across how 'other' a fantasy race might be. Sometimes it really fires a shot across the bow for players. Once the players, for instance, heard that dwarves treated getting drunk at home outside the confines of a meadhall to be the equivalent of spousal/familial physical abuse even when nothing physical or 'harmful' (by human standards) even occurred it became quite clear how important family stability within a household was to the dwarves in the setting.

At the end of the day its going to boil down to the same issues playing an alien or strange/foreign culture can be.

Some players will get into it and some wont and the rest are in between.

You can do the same thing with dwarves and especially gnomes who oft are depicted with some unusual behaviors as well.

But with elves the problem is some dont want elves, they want faeries and fae. Theres a difference. But alot of people have mixed the words together to the point its hard to tell without a description of how they act.

And even the faerie realm were not completely bug-eyed-aliens. They still have many human aspects.

I mean in England aelfs evolved by mixing with Celtic legends and Christian folklore into faerie and fae.
So world elf was used for faerie.

I'd say overall however there is no One True Elf and in kitchensink D&D Tolkienian elves and dwarves (arguably closer to Nordic and partially Finnic roots) can co-exist with devilish English Faerie.
So it's all about estabilishing what given world means in your setting that's all - and if you play Tolkienian elves which are basically humans in pre-Original Sin state, then playing them as close to humanity in many regards is fine.