Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOr until the forefathers of the Technocracy threw a spanner into the metaphysical works.

Yeah, it wasn't a particularly satisfying explanation, was it?

That's the thing: the Medieval Paradigm isn't the same as the consensus reality of Mage. Mythic Europe isn't the way it is because that's how medieval society believes it is; medieval society believes what it believes because that's how Mythic Europe is.

Quote from: WarthurYep. In 3rd edition they tinkered with the Ars Magica metaphysic a lot so that Mythic Europe would be the background to the World of Darkness.

In fact, you could make an argument that under the Mythic Paradigm, Mythic Europe would never become the World of Darkness, because it would never progress full stop. Things would just keep ticking along much as they were until Jesus returned and the world ended.

I don't know, I don't see it that way. You're applying logic to Mythic Europe, and Mythic Europe is mythical, not logical. In every case, I don't care whether Mythic Europe will become the World of Darkness or not, it doesn't affect play.

Hermetic magic in Ars Magica is based on taking the assumptions of the Medieval Paradigm and following them to their logical conclusion - that's why wizards can get better at certain types of magic by reading Aristotle, for example.

Also, there's nothing mythic about "God, Satan, wizards and fairies will all go away if you just look at the world through the eyes of reason".

Quote from: WarthurThat's the thing: the Medieval Paradigm isn't the same as the consensus reality of Mage. Mythic Europe isn't the way it is because that's how medieval society believes it is; medieval society believes what it believes because that's how Mythic Europe is.

Indeed. Mechanics-wise, I love ArM3, it's just that I don't give a shit about Reason because it's fucking retarded.

Quote from: WarthurHermetic magic in Ars Magica is based on taking the assumptions of the Medieval Paradigm and following them to their logical conclusion - that's why wizards can get better at certain types of magic by reading Aristotle, for example.

I politely disagree. Hermetic Magic in Ars Magica is about having a traditional gaming magic system, but with a lot of color added, in a setting that is both familiar to the gamer (Middle Ages Europe), but in the same time, a fantasy setting. Wizards can get better at certain types of magic by reading Aristotle? Maybe with the rules of the Mysteries, which appeared for 4th edition, but not in previous editions.

QuoteAlso, there's nothing mythic about "God, Satan, wizards and fairies will all go away if you just look at the world through the eyes of reason".

That's not mythic nor unmythic. It's true that ArM3 hinted that reality is subjective based on belief, linking Ars Magica to Mage the Ascension, but there are no rules in ArM3 (nor in other editions) for "disbelieving" magical beings, demons and faeries, so the above statement doesn't hold.

Here's an excerpt from Jonathan Tweet:

   My first professionally published RPG was Ars Magica (designed with Mark Rein•Hagen). Ars Magica features a fantasy version of medieval Europe, with the medieval paradigm as fact. Thus, the Christian God is the ultimate power in Ars Magica. The PCs, wizards and their allies, are outside society and outside the Church. While the game generally portrays the Church as a rival power to the Order of Hermes, it is the wizards who are in the wrong and the Church that is in the right. It suits me that the wizards, with their great learning and power, don't also have the advantage of being doctrinally correct or in God's good graces. It would be insufficiently ironic for the Church to be wrong and the wizards to be right.

The wizards (literate, rationalistic, extra-ecclesiastic, non-feudal, and nearly scientific) clearly resemble modern people. The question of whether Ars Magica carries the sub-text that modern people are spiritually adrift is left as an exercise for the reader.

I'm quite fond of this blog entry because it proved what I had long suspected about authors intent. The wizards are clearly modern people, albiet in medieval drag.

Quote from: ClaudiusI politely disagree. Hermetic Magic in Ars Magica is about having a traditional gaming magic system, but with a lot of color added, in a setting that is both familiar to the gamer (Middle Ages Europe), but in the same time, a fantasy setting.

That's the OOC rationale for the way Hermetic Magic is, I grant you, but the IC rationale is that Bonisagus, through being super smart, was able to piece together a coherent system of magic from various Western traditions and convince most other Western European magicians to take it up.

QuoteWizards can get better at certain types of magic by reading Aristotle? Maybe with the rules of the Mysteries, which appeared for 4th edition, but not in previous editions.

It's part of the core rules in 5th edition - specifically, they get better at ceremonial magic.

QuoteThat's not mythic nor unmythic. It's true that ArM3 hinted that reality is subjective based on belief, linking Ars Magica to Mage the Ascension, but there are no rules in ArM3 (nor in other editions) for "disbelieving" magical beings, demons and faeries, so the above statement doesn't hold.

Er, yes there are rules in ArM3 for disbelieving stuff: didn't we spend a heap of time discussing True Reason earlier in this thread?

Quote from: Malleus ArianorumI'm quite fond of this blog entry because it proved what I had long suspected about authors intent. The wizards are clearly modern people, albiet in medieval drag.

Dang, that's a good post. It's past time I put Tweet on my RSS aggregator.

Quote from: WarthurThat's the OOC rationale for the way Hermetic Magic is, I grant you, but the IC rationale is that Bonisagus, through being super smart, was able to piece together a coherent system of magic from various Western traditions and convince most other Western European magicians to take it up.

In your previous post you said:

QuoteHermetic magic in Ars Magica is based on taking the assumptions of the Medieval Paradigm and following them to their logical conclusion

And I say, that Hermetic Magic is not based in the Medieval Paradigm, at all! Hermetic magic is now what medieval people believed magic was. There's nothing wrong with that, I like my fantasy version of Medieval Europe. Simply, that's how things are.

Other games have magic systems that feel more medieval, like, for example Aquelarre.

QuoteIt's part of the core rules in 5th edition - specifically, they get better at ceremonial magic.

Exactly my point, even better. This rule appeared in ArM5, so it's a very recent innovation.

QuoteEr, yes there are rules in ArM3 for disbelieving stuff: didn't we spend a heap of time discussing True Reason earlier in this thread?

Which rules do you mean exactly? Points of Reason? Reason Auras? Because, as far as I know, there are no rules to walk up to a demon and disbelieve him into oblivion just through True Reason, "yo, you can't exist, you bastard!!"

The effects of Points of True Reason and Auras of True Reason are more limited than that, they're a mere annoyance.

Quote from: Malleus ArianorumHere's an excerpt from Jonathan Tweet:

   My first professionally published RPG was Ars Magica (designed with Mark Rein•Hagen). Ars Magica features a fantasy version of medieval Europe, with the medieval paradigm as fact. Thus, the Christian God is the ultimate power in Ars Magica. The PCs, wizards and their allies, are outside society and outside the Church. While the game generally portrays the Church as a rival power to the Order of Hermes, it is the wizards who are in the wrong and the Church that is in the right. It suits me that the wizards, with their great learning and power, don't also have the advantage of being doctrinally correct or in God's good graces. It would be insufficiently ironic for the Church to be wrong and the wizards to be right.

The wizards (literate, rationalistic, extra-ecclesiastic, non-feudal, and nearly scientific) clearly resemble modern people. The question of whether Ars Magica carries the sub-text that modern people are spiritually adrift is left as an exercise for the reader.

I'm quite fond of this blog entry because it proved what I had long suspected about authors intent. The wizards are clearly modern people, albiet in medieval drag.

In ArM3, if I recall correctly, it is explicitly stated that the Magus is a symbol of modern man in the Middle Ages. If I've got some free time, I'll look for the exact sentence.

There's something I can't get: Why are some people so fixated on the "Oh my God, there are demons everywhere" problem, and True Reason. Regarding demons, this problem appears only in a few supplements I don't even own, and I bought a few ArM3 supplements. You can have a happy gaming life with just the 3rd edition corebook without knowing that demons are everywhere. :haw:

And True Reason? Easy to ignore. You don't like it? Then Auras of True Reason don't exist. Simple as that.

On the other hand, I see ArM3 has a few defects in actual play that few people care to comment, such as:

1 The skill list is way too long. There are too many skills, fuck, there is a skill to notice things when you're putting attention and another one to notice things when you're not!

2 Passions are very cool (why were they eliminated? :boom:) but they are prone to abuse.