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Author Topic: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures  (Read 12957 times)

Bren

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Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #105 on: October 26, 2021, 03:24:17 PM »
1+2 will never be 10.
Depends on the base. And by base I don't mean the lunatic fringe driving so much of politics these days, I mean the mathematical base or radix. When the base is 3, 1+2 is always 10.

Logic is pretty simple. The world, not so much.
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PsyXypher

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Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #106 on: October 27, 2021, 01:31:25 PM »
On the historical concept of slavery being near universal.

That's absolutely true. But that doesn't change the fact that slavery was also pretty damn harmful. Not even to the people being enslaved, either.

You can make an entirely pragmatic argument on slavery being bad on the grounds that labor is a commodity that laborers sell to their employers. A slave represents two things: Someone who doesn't get paid and someone who cannot go to another job, become an entrepreneur and can't spend money. This means that a slave is a net drain on the economy, as money that someone would make in a functional economy being employed simply isn't put into the economy by a slave. This means the baker loses out on money that slave would spend buying his bread, the tailor loses out on money that slave would spend buying clothes, the landlord loses out on money that slave would spend on housing, and so on. The theoretical person doing the slave's work also doesn't get their money either, and no one can really compete with a labor cost of 0.

This can be seen in two places. The fall of Rome, where this was one of many contributing factors, and in the American South, which wasn't and to an extent still isn't highly industrialized. 

Basically I'm saying you could make a good argument that a Good society won't have slaves because it'll screw up the economy for everyone. That, and enslaving another human being is morally wrong, but if your society uses pre-enlightenment values then this is a good replacement, IMO.

Or in short. "Slavery is illegal here. Damn slaves, stealing all our jobs!"
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tenbones

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Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #107 on: October 27, 2021, 03:14:40 PM »
Pre-Enlightenment values means that human life itself is a commodity.

One could argue that elites in the world today *still* operate from that position. Only the parameters have changed to more granular values. For example - it seems to be acceptable to citizens of the Western World that largely has abolished institutional slavery (which is not true - we use our prison population for slave labor to make products for the military, and now commercially called "correctional industries" where they are paid pennies on the dollar in most cases), we're perfectly fine with slavery in the form of foreign nations that practice slavery to build our items of convenience.

But let's be real, we're really talking about the common-folk or means, whip-cracking, slavery of old where our Adventurers wander around the streets and can go to the slave-market and see people up for sale on the block and realize "Hey! I can actually afford that!"

The "problem" is most GM's don't really give a lot of thought to the cultural economy and reality about how slavery would operate. Whether you call it 'indentured servitude' or 'correctional industry' or 'familial manservant inperpetuity' - or whatever, these things have gradations and cultural mores associated with them that differ wildly.

You can argue the whip-cracking, beat-your-slave's-ass to death kinda culture is as much a corollary of the values of "life" itself more than the legal status of the slave. As a commodity I think it's overblown that slave owners would kill their slaves with impunity *in general* because that's money down the drain, and not good for business. But in cultures where life is literally cheap - that may very well be the case. Most GM's don't take that kind of thought into consideration for effect. Because it's easy to have the Django-esque slave-owner that cinematically has endless amounts of slaves to kill for sport, rather than running the business of their lives. Which unironically is how must naive and stupid people view "slavery" whenever the word comes up. As pointed out in this very thread, the historical reality of slavery across the world is more technical (and interesting).

Assigning "good and evil" writ large is a shifty thing, based solely on "slavery" given its historical relevance and current practice. It's easy to be EEEEEEVIL. But in context, what does that mean when individuals themselves don't have the same values that their own alleged culture espouses?


« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 03:19:15 PM by tenbones »

SHARK

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Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #108 on: October 27, 2021, 03:59:45 PM »
Pre-Enlightenment values means that human life itself is a commodity.

One could argue that elites in the world today *still* operate from that position. Only the parameters have changed to more granular values. For example - it seems to be acceptable to citizens of the Western World that largely has abolished institutional slavery (which is not true - we use our prison population for slave labor to make products for the military, and now commercially called "correctional industries" where they are paid pennies on the dollar in most cases), we're perfectly fine with slavery in the form of foreign nations that practice slavery to build our items of convenience.

But let's be real, we're really talking about the common-folk or means, whip-cracking, slavery of old where our Adventurers wander around the streets and can go to the slave-market and see people up for sale on the block and realize "Hey! I can actually afford that!"

The "problem" is most GM's don't really give a lot of thought to the cultural economy and reality about how slavery would operate. Whether you call it 'indentured servitude' or 'correctional industry' or 'familial manservant inperpetuity' - or whatever, these things have gradations and cultural mores associated with them that differ wildly.

You can argue the whip-cracking, beat-your-slave's-ass to death kinda culture is as much a corollary of the values of "life" itself more than the legal status of the slave. As a commodity I think it's overblown that slave owners would kill their slaves with impunity *in general* because that's money down the drain, and not good for business. But in cultures where life is literally cheap - that may very well be the case. Most GM's don't take that kind of thought into consideration for effect. Because it's easy to have the Django-esque slave-owner that cinematically has endless amounts of slaves to kill for sport, rather than running the business of their lives. Which unironically is how must naive and stupid people view "slavery" whenever the word comes up. As pointed out in this very thread, the historical reality of slavery across the world is more technical (and interesting).

Assigning "good and evil" writ large is a shifty thing, based solely on "slavery" given its historical relevance and current practice. It's easy to be EEEEEEVIL. But in context what does that mean when individuals themselves don't have the same values that their own alleged culture espouses?

Greetings!

Excellent, my friend! Yeah, cultures and societies--both in "Ancient Times" as well as currently, are all over the map with moral values and how consistent they are. Greece an Rome both believed in the values of freedom, humanity, law, dignity, and rights--but these values were applied to certain kinds of people, either by civilization or race, or also by social and economic status. Carthaginians were slaughtered entirely--their relative wealth, status, or skills were deemed irrelevant. They were slaughtered by the Romans, and their women and children plundered as slaves by the hundreds of thousands. Likewise, Romans respected Iberians, Greeks, and Syrians, but Britons, Goths, Egyptians? Considerably less so. These kinds of things of course varied in degree by circumstance and time, as well. Centuries after the subjugation of the Carthaginian Empire, Carthage was rebuilt, and people born and raised in the province were respected Roman citizens. ;D

Just like with today. People don't give a fuck about slaves or slavery. As long as they get to eat whatever they want, fuck like monkeys, and wear Nike shoes--the slaves can keep on being subjugated. Millions of people slave away in China--often confined to special "Worker's Barracks" or apartments, constantly under surveillance, their social time controlled, and they are required to work 10, 12, 14 hours a day. It seems to vary by region, industry, and so on. They are paid a nickel an hour, and exist on starvation wages. They are constantly supervised, or at least most of the time, an controlled. Anyone getting uppity or smart mouthed gets their ass beat down. Run their mouth again, think they're a tough guy?--a Black van with armed men comes and gets them--and their families--in the middle of the night, and they simply disappear, and are never seen again.

That sounds like terrifying and brutal slavery to me, even if those people are not technically or officially termed as "slaves". But no one cares. They grind away, by the MILLIONS in China, in particular, but we have seen reports and investigations over the years with similarly brutal slave camps and slave conditions with Nike in Indonesia and other parts of South East Asia where Nike and other companies pay the government officials hundreds of millions of dollars to "look the other way" while workers are brutally treated, and forced to work where, when, and how Nike and their masters determine they do so. I've also read about how hordes of young girls are enslaved and forced to serve as breeders and whores. They don't like it? They get beaten, and then fed to the fucking crocodiles. Many times these girl's families are actually paid a considerable fee, and thereby forget about their daughter.

In Africa--Muslim and Black slave masters buy, sell, and own slaves, both men and women. Do we hear any "African American' activists or goody Liberal cock-sucking white champions here screaming about these horrible atrocities?

No. They are worried about a group of black people being seated on a different side of a fucking restaurant, or some phony "Hate crimes" where swastikas were painted on a school wall...by a black African-American girl.

All kinds of horrifying injustices going on around the world. But few people actually give a fuck. The population, the media, government agencies? Where are the celebrities, the media companies, screaming about how China and Black Muslims in Africa are oppressing and enslaving hundreds of thousands or millions of people? Black African Christians are routinely raped, gang fucked, enslaved, and murdered in many parts of Africa, often by the government or groups sanctioned by the government. Most of the most oppressive groups, organizations, and governments in Africa are, of course, Muslim. How come people here in America or in Western Europe aren't screaming about that?

Smug, Liberal's do-gooder hypocrisy, blindness, and obvious political self-interest, as you know, can be very frustrating. Just another reason why I despise most of modern Liberalism and modern Liberals. It is absolutely phony and corrupt, and smug, as well as petty and self-satisfied and spoiled. Decadent and gross. Liberals are morally disgusting on every level in so many ways. All o their constant crying abut "representation"; "rights"; and "dignity" for women, for gays, trans, or for racial minorities--it is all gross political and ideological performance theater, and absolutely corrupt and rotten to the core, like a bad apple let for too long out in the sun.

So many inconsistencies throughout the world and in society. There always have been. Slavery in the game can and should exist, because it is historically accurate and enhances the verisimilitude! ;D Plus, it provides enhanced dramatic effects and emotionalism for the Player Characters.

I have slavery in many regions of my campaign world. Slaves being bred, and put up on the slave block, to advertise their assets to their future masters and mistresses! Plus, it's entertaining watching the Player's faces when they see what's going on down at the local slave market. I like Sword & Sorcery themes too. Conan lived in a harsh and brutal world, too.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Wrath of God

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Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #109 on: October 28, 2021, 11:29:38 AM »
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Hmmm...I think it is possible to think about "Alignments" and the traditional D&D Alignment System in a way that is entirely too serious, too philosophical, and embracing far too much intellectual baggage.

Well it was my opponent here who claim how many dimensions Alignment adds, Shark. I claim is reduced and simplify dimensions.
Being based on shoddy philosophy and cosmology is main reason.

In both cases of shallow and deep game it seems just... spare.

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For many years, I have played with gamers that do just fine with the simple, traditional D&D Alignment System. There's no need to take the system too seriously, or attempt to map it somehow to real-world religious philosophy. It is of course fine to have some interesting and appropriate symmetries--but the analogy or the system is never going to be a perfect fit. In fact, it can never be so, and was never meant to be so. It is purposely straightforward and simplistic, for game purposes.

I understand this purpose. I'm just saying for game perspectives better to have no morality-o-meter than broken one :P
Like I play Conan game, or Warhammer, or any of other fantasy adventure games - I have no alignment. I do not need it it... My foes are my foes because they do foe-ish stuff, not because morality-o-meter told me so.


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That's all it is. Like some have mentioned, the alignment system is a kind of shorthand, and a role-playing tool to assist the Player in playing their character, or the DM in playing various non-player characters. The system is a tool in which to assist the DM in thinking about a particular character's thinking, responses, or values at-a-glance.

And there are so many better systems for that used in RPGs. And you know - if it's just shorthand for RP, maybe not based your entire Afterlife based on it... as it may came out bit shorthanded :P

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I've always been inspired by the ancient time in history, where--as some historians have described it--was a time where the world was the most peaceful, stable, and happy. There was the Roman Empire ruling in the West; the Persian Empire/Sassanid Empire ruling in the Near East; the Kushan Empire ruling in India and Central Asia; and the Tang Empire ruling in China. All four of these enormous empires were co-existing simultaneously; and during this brief moment in time, there was more peace, stability, advancement, and prosperity going on in all of them. Economically, artistically, philosophically, the achievements and discoveries were all deeply intriguing and fascinating.

I love all that stuff. ;D

Ha, I've just thinking about own take about FS/WH40k/Dune Space Feudalism setting, and this period is meant by me to be root of future civilisation (and shifting point for alt-history). Cool stuff.

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You want Modernity which means you MUST remove Gods & Devils because they enforce the degrees of alignment. Replace them with Philosophy like we modern human use. Philosophy allows the levels of moral variation you're looking for
.

. I don't need to remove Gods and Devils to remove alignment. I can quite easy make gods in lieu of real pagan gods, which usually had from Gygaxian perspective both Good and Bad sides, often in quite drastic measures. What define God is specific portfolio, element of material he cared about, not Lawful-Chaotic axis. Devils can be easily revamped as punishers, enforcers for Gods, punishing those who falsely worshipping break divine taboos, while conspiring to take deities places.

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You can make an entirely pragmatic argument on slavery being bad on the grounds that labor is a commodity that laborers sell to their employers. A slave represents two things: Someone who doesn't get paid and someone who cannot go to another job, become an entrepreneur and can't spend money. This means that a slave is a net drain on the economy, as money that someone would make in a functional economy being employed simply isn't put into the economy by a slave. This means the baker loses out on money that slave would spend buying his bread, the tailor loses out on money that slave would spend buying clothes, the landlord loses out on money that slave would spend on housing, and so on. The theoretical person doing the slave's work also doesn't get their money either, and no one can really compete with a labor cost of 0.

Only if you assume bakers not making money on slaves is bad.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 11:38:18 AM by Wrath of God »
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PsyXypher

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Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #110 on: October 28, 2021, 01:15:52 PM »

Only if you assume bakers not making money on slaves is bad.

In my explanation the slave would have been a free citizen, and thus able to spend money, buy bread, etc.
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Wrath of God

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Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #111 on: October 28, 2021, 01:42:05 PM »
Yes. I understand it.
And I'm telling it's still just certain assumption - that slave owners should support bakers by freeing slaves and paying them.
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.”

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"