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Author Topic: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby  (Read 27444 times)

Ghostmaker

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #165 on: October 01, 2021, 04:17:45 PM »
You know the funny thing is that some games mine the mythological wells of various cultures and unearth some neat critters. Heck, even Paizo's later Bestiaries featured some REALLY neat monsters, like the Filipino tikbalang or the Chilean cherufe.

If they spent more time coming up with constructive neat stuff, and less time hectoring people, things would be very different.

Shasarak

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #166 on: October 01, 2021, 04:36:02 PM »
Am I *supposed* to be outraged there are no Filipino Boxsets? Please oh please white people, tell me to what degree I should be angry or triggered?

Dont worry tenbones you dont have to do anything because I, as a White Man, have got this and am very angry and triggered on your behalf.

In fact where is the Manager, I would like to have some words.
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tenbones

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #167 on: October 01, 2021, 04:42:58 PM »
Right!

but don't worry they're screaming for REPRESENTATION! and DIVERSITY! for us. See?

It's hilarious. I love this game.

"Hey, did you know Mexicans and Filipinos were literal slaves to the Spanish for *centuries* even before the African slave trade. Why are you SJW's racists not lamenting our fates? where are our Brown Lives Matter protests?!??"

You didn't think about us - proof you're a SJW-racist.

You actually think we care, but we don't - so you don't protest - proof you're really don't care - proof you're probably a mild racist masquerading as an SJW-racist.

You do think you care, you protest - but you don't really know why, but you're racist against white people anyhow - proof you're a moron and an SJW-racist.

You blame the Spanish for being colonizers. But you're not sure if they're POC's... And you're afraid of offending Hispanics, fuck it they're European - proof you hate white people, regardless of culture, and therefore you're definitely an actual racist. (and doing it poorly)

You realize Hispanics would not exist without colonization! Damn... - Proof you're a typical clueless SJW-racist.

You realize Filipino's don't consider themselves "hispanic" but probably genetically are... but we can't say that because that would SJW-racist, leaving you to do nothing - Proof you're a lazy millennial and SJW-racist.

Or you know... maybe none of this is racist *at all* and it's your dumb fucking ideology that has you cornered among the rest of the SJW cannibals to hate your own culture and people as intended for other reasons.

TSR was always diverse. They already were inclusive. WotC has given us dick-in-ass for "Diversity". But some people like that.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 04:52:15 PM by tenbones »

S'mon

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #168 on: October 01, 2021, 04:46:26 PM »
For me, it becomes clearer when we talk about specifics. For example, having gay characters in RPG modules. tenbones has said that it's inherently wrong for WotC to include gay characters in existing settings like Forgotten Realms, Eberron, or Greyhawk, because it's inserting modern politics where it doesn't belong. While I might like or dislike any given character, I don't agree with that as a policy. I think it's fine to have gay characters in modules. Conversely, I believe that most RPG publishers banned gay characters in the 70s and 80s, and that ban was wrong and rooted in the prejudice of the time.

Gary Gygax had a gay character in Gord the Rogue Greyhawk AIR - a bad guy, probably one of those Blond of Evil Suel Scarlet Brotherhood types. I recall Gord amazed that a gay could fight bravely (against Gord). Gord also had some opinions about the Gynatrix of Hardby... If I'm GMing authentic-feeling Greyhawk, I probably want homosexual characters, but I don't want it considered socially acceptable - outside of Hardby Lesbians, obviously.  ;D I wouldn't touch Eberron. Forgotten Realms by contrast to Greyhawk is going to be a lot more tolerant, at least in the Heartlands & Dalelands, and unlikely to mind two men or two women shacked up together. But it was not created as a Blue Rose setting and having Gay Marriage as a thing with a man referring to 'my husband' is far too 21st century not to be a huge hit on suspension of disbelief.  In a Cyberpunk or SF setting, sure, go to town.

TL;DR: it's not the people existing that's the problem. It's the existing pseudo-medieval game worlds created with fantasy 1970s or 1980s social norms being warped to look like Seattle 2021 that's the problem for me.

FingerRod

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #169 on: October 01, 2021, 04:50:30 PM »
So in summary…

The importance of diversity and representation is roughly the same as the color of toothpick in the next club sandwich I order.

SJW arguments fall apart at alarming speeds on forums where the non-woke are not immediately banned and deleted.

Oh and most importantly, Shasarak would like to speak with the manager.

deadDMwalking

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #170 on: October 01, 2021, 04:52:08 PM »
Representation matters to some people:

Why on-screen representation matters according to these teens

I'm not hostile to the idea.  Most campaign settings are not rigidly defined.  I don't think any official publisher has ever said 'nobody in the Forgotten Realms is gay'.  Since the Forgotten Realms is a big place and it represents numerous human cultures and there have been gay people in EVERY human culture, that'd be awfully weird.  If gay people exist, I'd expect to see them featured proportionally.  Ie, if the Forgotten Realms is like the United States and 5.6% of Americans identify as gay, I think it would absolutely make sense if approximately 1/20 featured characters were gay.  Keep in mind that I don't think that revealing everyone's sexuality explicitly is necessary or even desirable. 

Likewise, a cosmopolitan city should be racially diverse (among humans and non-humans).  If 50% of the population is non-human, it doesn't really make sense that 100% of the humans that exist represent a single culture.  Melting Pots be melting pots, yo. 

The best campaign worlds have blank spots on the map.  While they may have been painted in broad strokes, there's room for more detail and nuance when the focus shifts to that area.  If a campaign area is 'mostly like China', most people will have an idea of what that means.  But as you focus in, you'll see differences between Han, Tibetans, and Uyghur.  If something hasn't been defined to be non-existent, then we can consider the possibility of its existence. 

In a fantasy world that has regions inspired by the Maya and Filipinos, you'd expect to find examples of those characters in that world.  Worlds get bigger as you explore them; the things that you know were included don't become less significant as you find examples of things that weren't thought up from the beginning.  This is as true for monsters as it is for cultural groups.  I've never had trouble explaining the presence of a heretofore monster; why would a cultural group be any harder? 

I've never met anyone from Liechtenstein. But I don't have any trouble believing they exist. 
When I say objectively, I mean 'subjectively'.  When I say literally, I mean 'figuratively'.  
And when I say that you are a horse's ass, I mean that the objective truth is that you are a literal horse's ass.

There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all. - Peter Drucker

tenbones

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #171 on: October 01, 2021, 04:53:56 PM »
But that's not the narrative and you know it.

Why are *WE* made to bend the knee on things we like for other peoples mental ISSUES?

This is *not* representation. This is politics.

deadDMwalking

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #172 on: October 01, 2021, 04:58:52 PM »
Why are *WE* made to bend the knee on things we like for other peoples mental ISSUES?

No one is forcing you to 'bend the knee'.  People are advocating for what they want to see in their favorite settings.  That's what fans do. 

Yes, sometimes people want things that you don't (like Acrobatic Yoda).  Yes, sometimes you feel the things people want ruin the setting (like Acrobatic Yoda).  Yes, sometimes you have to change the setting canon to get rid of things you think are bad for the setting (like Acrobatic Yoda).  What you do at your table is your business - but when you have a player that rolls up and WANTS something you don't (like Acrobatic Yoda) you try to work out something that's fun for both of you.  Maybe even though you think it's stupid, you roll with it.  At least they're not playing Jar-Jar Binks. 

Oh, and to the person who asked, yes, lightsabers are already a thing in just about every setting.  Brilliant energy was a core weapon property in 3.5. 
When I say objectively, I mean 'subjectively'.  When I say literally, I mean 'figuratively'.  
And when I say that you are a horse's ass, I mean that the objective truth is that you are a literal horse's ass.

There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all. - Peter Drucker

tenbones

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #173 on: October 01, 2021, 04:59:18 PM »
I have yet to see where WotC has produced settings that are Uighur or Filipino or Mexico specific. Hell - they're so concerned with Black Lives Matter socially - where is the Blackcentric RPG setting?

Instead they'd rather shoe-horn non-contextual content into established content. Lazy, patronizing tokenism.

That suffices for SJW's. Meanwhile in the same breath they'll call previous TSR's honest attempts as "cultural appropriation"

You aren't very convincing at this. Maybe it only works on leftists?

tenbones

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #174 on: October 01, 2021, 05:02:06 PM »
Why are *WE* made to bend the knee on things we like for other peoples mental ISSUES?

No one is forcing you to 'bend the knee'.  People are advocating for what they want to see in their favorite settings.  That's what fans do. 

Yes, sometimes people want things that you don't (like Acrobatic Yoda).  Yes, sometimes you feel the things people want ruin the setting (like Acrobatic Yoda).  Yes, sometimes you have to change the setting canon to get rid of things you think are bad for the setting (like Acrobatic Yoda).  What you do at your table is your business - but when you have a player that rolls up and WANTS something you don't (like Acrobatic Yoda) you try to work out something that's fun for both of you.  Maybe even though you think it's stupid, you roll with it.  At least they're not playing Jar-Jar Binks. 

Oh, and to the person who asked, yes, lightsabers are already a thing in just about every setting.  Brilliant energy was a core weapon property in 3.5.

Wait you're pretending that none of the social ostracizing that has been happening for the last decade over SJW ideology which has produced this very fine forum of proud bastards never happened?

That the very ideas this thread is named for isn't a real thing? Dude why are you even posting? Oh wait... I must be a dumb POC to you. Is that what's going on here? LOL

Just because someone likes and wants something DUMB and STUPID doesn't mean it's GOOD and should be included.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 05:03:52 PM by tenbones »

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #175 on: October 01, 2021, 05:04:53 PM »
Why on-screen representation matters according to these teens

And their voice matters because??? If some teens said why they think public execution was important, and how inspiring seeing a hanged man was, this wouldn't get a PBS article about it.

Representation & diversity get exceptional treatment as ideas because as I said: they are covers for even worse ones.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #176 on: October 01, 2021, 05:06:52 PM »
I must be a dumb POC to you. Is that what's going on here?

If analyzed as a means towards furthering critical theory, it all makes sense. They don't think your dumb. They just see you as a tool just like everybody else. In that sense its very racially blind.

When you see all of reality as a lie, then all people are just illusions to be used.

Jaeger

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #177 on: October 01, 2021, 05:15:46 PM »
But that's not the narrative and you know it.

Why are *WE* made to bend the knee on things we like for other peoples mental ISSUES?

This is *not* representation. This is politics.

It's all a gotcha rhetoric and catch-22 set ups:

Activist: Why do you have no mentions of homosexuality in your RPGs?

RPG Co: Dude, ‘homosexual rights’ are a hot-button political issue, and we don’t want to touch that stuff in our escapist RPGs.

Activist: Since when are basic human rights a political issue?

RPG Co: WTF? We’re a gaming company making escapist RPGs. Why do we need to put out a press release about our stance on some “human rights” issue?

Activist: Because everything is political, Bigot. By not mentioning homosexuality at all, you are explicitly taking an anti-homosexual political stance!

RPG Co: Wait, what!?



When you break most SJW reasoning down: It's all Motte and bailey, heads I win - tails you lose, circular Conflict Theory nonsense on a loop tape.

If it wasn't LGBTQP, or POC, it would be brown eyed people vs blue eyed people. Whatever hook that lets them get their foot in the door so that they can divide and conquer to gain Control.


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GeekyBugle

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #178 on: October 01, 2021, 05:17:24 PM »
Representation matters to some people:

Why on-screen representation matters according to these teens

I'm not hostile to the idea.  Most campaign settings are not rigidly defined.  I don't think any official publisher has ever said 'nobody in the Forgotten Realms is gay'.  Since the Forgotten Realms is a big place and it represents numerous human cultures and there have been gay people in EVERY human culture, that'd be awfully weird.  If gay people exist, I'd expect to see them featured proportionally.  Ie, if the Forgotten Realms is like the United States and 5.6% of Americans identify as gay, I think it would absolutely make sense if approximately 1/20 featured characters were gay.  Keep in mind that I don't think that revealing everyone's sexuality explicitly is necessary or even desirable. 

Likewise, a cosmopolitan city should be racially diverse (among humans and non-humans).  If 50% of the population is non-human, it doesn't really make sense that 100% of the humans that exist represent a single culture.  Melting Pots be melting pots, yo. 

The best campaign worlds have blank spots on the map.  While they may have been painted in broad strokes, there's room for more detail and nuance when the focus shifts to that area.  If a campaign area is 'mostly like China', most people will have an idea of what that means.  But as you focus in, you'll see differences between Han, Tibetans, and Uyghur.  If something hasn't been defined to be non-existent, then we can consider the possibility of its existence. 

In a fantasy world that has regions inspired by the Maya and Filipinos, you'd expect to find examples of those characters in that world.  Worlds get bigger as you explore them; the things that you know were included don't become less significant as you find examples of things that weren't thought up from the beginning.  This is as true for monsters as it is for cultural groups.  I've never had trouble explaining the presence of a heretofore monster; why would a cultural group be any harder? 

I've never met anyone from Liechtenstein. But I don't have any trouble believing they exist.

Especially if said Maya or Filipinos have planes to jump in and go to Europe.

Oh, right, I forgot "Muh Teleportation!", which is just another way of saying "Because Dragons".

Never mind that those spells need the caster to know perfectly the destination to reduce the probability of death to "only" 3% and can't carry more than 250 pounds + 150 pounds for each level above 10th and he needs to be touching it.

I bet those wizards would charge just a copper to take you from the Mayab to Europe per person.

But the wizard has to go with you, and how exactly did that wizard get to the Mayab? He couldn't have teleported there unless he knew it like his hand, and 3% of those who tried it probably died. So he must have gotten there by more conventional means.

Which means sailing. For a fucking month, on seas with literal sea monsters and other perils, to reach a fucking island on the bahamas. another month to reach Cuba (lets say it was the Mayab instead). So two months to get there, and you took with you a 10th level wizard that Hapens to know the Teleport Spell, so after spending there a few months the wizard now knows "very well" one spot to teleport back and so he and one other can teleport back to Europe.

Yeah I think this would be so cheap as to make Mayas ubiquitous all over Europe...
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GeekyBugle

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #179 on: October 01, 2021, 05:24:11 PM »
Why are *WE* made to bend the knee on things we like for other peoples mental ISSUES?

No one is forcing you to 'bend the knee'.  People are advocating for what they want to see in their favorite settings.  That's what fans do. 

Yes, sometimes people want things that you don't (like Acrobatic Yoda).  Yes, sometimes you feel the things people want ruin the setting (like Acrobatic Yoda).  Yes, sometimes you have to change the setting canon to get rid of things you think are bad for the setting (like Acrobatic Yoda).  What you do at your table is your business - but when you have a player that rolls up and WANTS something you don't (like Acrobatic Yoda) you try to work out something that's fun for both of you.  Maybe even though you think it's stupid, you roll with it.  At least they're not playing Jar-Jar Binks. 

Oh, and to the person who asked, yes, lightsabers are already a thing in just about every setting.  Brilliant energy was a core weapon property in 3.5.

I am "the person who asked" you care so much about us non-whites you can't even arse to answer me directly.

Or maybe, just maybe you're lying?

Lets see if you're answering my question, I said "Tell me, should my pseudo medieval europe elfgame also have light sabers?"

So I guess we now know why you didn't quote me huh? Because you're not answering MY question but a strawman.

Guess I'm a dumb "POC" to you because you thought you could slip that one thru.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell