When it was done to honor and try (your mileage may vary on the quality of the attempt) - Al-Qadim, Maztica, Kara-Tur, The Hordelands, Nyambe - these products were discontinued.

White people still dominate this hobby because they invented it. Africans are not playing Nyambe in Africa. Asians are not playing Kara-Tur in Asia. Central and South Americans aren't playing Maztica. They're playing D&D - warriors and wizards killing orcs and taking loot.

This incessant neurotic self-loathing need to make themselves feel "less guilty" for representation is racist in its own misplacement - you won't even listen to *actual* people from these places telling you it's racist, you're so sure of your own arrogant position.

Is this what the "White Savior" meme comes from? You SJW guys invented  it and like to project it so hard you don't realize you're the ones that perpetrate it? I'm reminded of the albino in "Da Vinci Code" where somewhere there are white SJW's flagellating themselves over their own actions which by their own dumb warped definitions of racism - brand themselves as racists.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 01, 2021, 02:49:50 PM

Quote from: tenbones on October 01, 2021, 02:38:22 PM
Am I *supposed* to be outraged there are no Filipino Boxsets? Please oh please white people, tell me to what degree I should be angry or triggered?

Don't know.  But I suspect the answer is that if you aren't angry or triggered all the time, you are falling short. 

I literally can't stop laughing at the absurdity of this thread, and your post made me choke on my chicharone.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:32:47 PMWhen something is absent, not everyone notices it.  As a white dude, watching a movie that is full of nothing but white dudes (like Lord of the Rings) never strikes me as weird.  But the world that is portrayed in the movies looks nothing like the world I live in.  We KNOW that there are people of other ethnicities - but they're not really represented in the movies/books.  Asking the question: should they have been included? isn't a problem.

The people in woke movies/books generally think nothing like I think and do not represent the world I live in. Asking the question: should they have been removed? isn't a problem.

Why is the world you invision the one that must be represented. This isn't about some vision of balanced justice. Its about demanding the world be how you want it to be.

QuoteI am proposing that EXPOSURE to more ideas is actually a good thing.

So will the LGBTQ movie have a heroic and balanced view of people against gay-marriage?
Will bollywood have more Japanese in it?
Will the D&D provide balanced exposure to the race-mixer as well as the race purist?
Should the rape victim be exposed to raunchy sex comdies inside of her safe space?

There are a quintillion different ideas and they all want exposure. Who gets to choose who 'gets' that exposure, and who must sacrifice their exposure?

QuoteIs 'liking red shirts' supposed to equate to life experiences?

Because you will engage in mott & bailey techniques I will chase you into the secure position:

Yes. Different perspectives are not always for the better. When designing a fishing pole, I don't want the experience of people sucky at fishing and blame the very idea of fishing. A team will not have good perspectives on fishing by virtue of being different. Having similar experiences, but being good at what they do will be better.

Double Post

Quote from: tenbones on October 01, 2021, 02:47:34 PM
@ DeadDMWalking

I call bullshit. You can't have it both ways. You can't talk about representation in the general - without being specific about who and why? I am a filipino. I've literally asked dozens of times about why no one advocates for my representation. If you were being honest about your position you would advocate for that representation despite the fact you know I don't care.

I'm specifically arguing that people who think representation is important should be represented.  Since you don't care, I don't care.  Or at least, not as it pertains to running a hypothetical game with you as a player. 

Quote from: tenbones on October 01, 2021, 02:47:34 PM
How far shall we undermine the conceits of a setting to the Hecklers Veto? Because that's what this is. All the weirdos and degenerates now want their representation too. At the expense of everyone else that doesn't. When does it cease to be what brought us all together in the first place?

A setting like Raveloft includes pulling in things (and characters) from any number of other worlds.  The conceit of the setting is that the plane is itself selecting and holding people.  IF SOMETHING IS IMPORTANT TO ME, you should have a reason why you're not allowing it.  That does not mean that every village in Ravenloft has to have a quota of specific minorities; but it also doesn't mean that it can't.  Likewise, any port city in any type of high-trade environment (like most published fantasy settings) should have people from the far-flung corners of the globe. 

If you have every reason to include diversity, but you haven't, there really are only two reasons that make sense.  One - you thought about it and rejected it because you don't WANT diversity, or Two - you just didn't think about it. 

#2 is what usually happens.  When I'm writing, race isn't necessarily important to me.  It's quite likely that failure to specify will cause people to assume the race they're most familiar with/comfortable with.  Reminding people to consider diversity isn't bad - it actually makes worlds seem MORE REALISTIC. 

In the real world, think about how many stereotypes you can think about for Germans versus Italians.  Keep in mind that they're people that share a border.  They have a lot of shared history.  And yet, they're VERY DIFFERENT.  Even within a single country (like Italy) where they share a language, a political structure, and popular entertainment, consider how many stereotypes exist between Northerners and Southerners.  Monocultures are unrealistic and boring. 

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:59:05 PM
I'm specifically arguing that people who think representation is important should be represented.

Should people that don't think representation is important be represented?

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:32:47 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 12:56:47 PM
Even granting you all of that is representation and diversity it's not what they are selling plus you still need to explain exactly why A pseudo medieval Europe NEEDS to have Maya people in it.

No, I don't.  I didn't make the claim that it did.  In fact, no one is saying that a medieval simulation needs Maya people in it if no one wants them there.  But, and this is a huge but - if a player wants to be a Maya character that's worth exploring.  If you're playing a strict medieval simulator, that may not work at all.  But if you're playing a fantasy world with teleport, or a fantasy race that has characteristics in common with Maya culture, maybe an option that's acceptable to everyone at the table is possible. 

Yeah, so IF my world has magic then there's no reason not to have any and all cultures or races cramed in the same continent/kingdom/city.

Why? Because Dragons.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:32:47 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 12:56:47 PM
Do you understand that I don't need to see myself everywhere to be able to empathize with the characters?

Do you understand that this isn't about you?  It's great that you don't feel the need to have someone that shares cultural traits with you in order to have fun with a game.  I'm sure most people are quite capable of having fun with a character that is very different from them - like a nerdy guy in glasses enjoying playing a hulking orc.  But sometimes it's MORE FUN to play someone that you identify with, and I think saying no to that without good reason is a bad idea. It's a game of imagination - if you can't find an imaginative way to 'say yes' to your players, I think that reflects poorly on you.  Now if none of your players want something, it's a non-issue.  It is specifically only in the case that someone is asking for something that this comes up. 

Oh, trust me, I do understand it isn't about me, nor is it about other "people of color", it's all about white gringo leftists pretending to speak for me and to be offended in my behalf. Which is why you dismiss mine and Tenbones criticism of the idea by alluding to "someone, somwhere, MIGHT soday want to do X" and therefore X should allways be on the table.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:32:47 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 12:56:47 PM
Not to mention that reducing me to my ethnicity is pretty racist IMO.

I didn't do that.  I also didn't say that you want to/don't want to play a character that shares your ethnicity. I am saying that there are times and places where some people would prefer that.

Oh, yes, you did, and I quote

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:32:47 PM"On the subject of diversity, that can mean a lot of things.  But essentially, it means a broad type of experience and ways of thinking about the world.  A different view - a different way of doing things - can change the world.  It's very easy to prohibit women and/or minorities from sharing their views (or to rob them and credit someone more 'acceptable'), which in turn leads to a form of stagnation.  Inclusion doesn't mean that all ideas are inherently equal - some OUGHT to be better than others - but exposure to a large number of ideas helps 'the marketplace of ideas' produce the best ones.

Exposure to more people means exposure to more ideas.  Some of them are going to be good - better than you've thought of on your own.

Trying to be inclusive - welcoming people who don't agree with you or have different life experiences - can make your life better.  Maybe it's as simple as finding out that you love Ethiopian food, or maybe it's finding your spouse.  It's not a guarantee that your life will improve, but I think that exposure to new ways of doing things makes you more 'worldly'.

The alternative is to remain 'provincial', and not even realize how much of the world you're missing. "

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:32:47 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 12:56:47 PM
You're also assuming ALL people of X group think alike or had the same experiences. Pro tip they don't.

No, I'm not.  I'm saying 'if someone expresses a specific preference, it's good to try to accommodate it'. If you don't want to play a Maya character, but your friend does, and I'm running the game, I'm going to look at whether that's possible.  And maybe instead of playing a simulationist medieval England game, we might play in Forgotten Realms where it IS POSSIBLE. 

Your table your rules, but it's not about your table is it? It's about everybody else's tables, that's what's being pushed by the "Muh Representashun" and "Muh Diversity" white gringo leftists.

You shouldn't be able to write a game/setting/adventure without including all of their "protected" groups. You also shouldn't be able to write a game/setting/adventure with ALL of their "protected" groups because you're white and male and probably hetero.

You can equivocate all you want, we know what it's being said and demanded because we have seen it.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:32:47 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 12:56:47 PM
You do know the proponents of all of this bollocks are the same people demanding I don't play a black person because reasons?

No. I don't know that.  Who is demanding that you don't play a black character?  Who is demanding that you don't play a female character?  Who is demanding that you don't play an elf?  Role-playing games let you put yourself in someone else's shoes - at least, they should.  Now, not everyone can handle it.  If you play all female characters as over-sexed hornballs, maybe people will tell you that you shouldn't try to play female characters.  Not because it's inherently wrong - just because you're very bad at it. 

So you have been living under a rock for the past 5 years and haven't ever read/participated in anyu of the discussions on this same forum where we spoke about who, where and what is being demanded?

Fine, I believe yoiu, but then you can't speak with any authority in this matter due to your self admited ignorance in the subject.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:32:47 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 12:56:47 PM
I don't want nor need your "representation" what you understand by "diversity" nor your white saviour complex. I'm perfectly able to play elfgames in worlds where the Maya don't exist, because I'm not a psychopath.

More power to you.  If you're having fun, you're doing it right.  If someone ISN'T having fun because they can't play the character that they want, I think you should try to address that.  That's not always possible - some people want to play in a game that is all about them and their needs, and have no consideration for what other people want.  But if you're saying that other players can't play what they want because of how it affects YOU, well, you might be the problem.

Because IF I don't want those who want to make the game all about themselves (those crying about "Muh Representashun" and "Muh Diversity") in my table/game then I'm the problem.

Because Dragons.

Tell me, should my pseudo medieval europe elfgame also have light sabers?

Why not? Teleportation, magic, post apocaliptic, Dragons, other planes, blah, blah, blah.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 01, 2021, 03:02:14 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:59:05 PM
I'm specifically arguing that people who think representation is important should be represented.

Should people that don't think representation is important be represented?

That's diversity of opinion, not diversity of race or sex. So no.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:47:12 PM
If you were playing in a historical game set after 1521, the presence of a Filipinio character in a European setting isn't difficult to explain - while unusual (like adventurers), it is plausible.

You're so tolerant you can't even be arsed to spell Filipino correctly.

A Filipino advernture in historic renaissance Europe would be exceedingly unlikely. The concept would need so much explanation and support that the game would end up revolving around that character. So, yeah, it's a snowflake move to try to hijack someone's game like that. If you agree to play in someone's world, you should respect the world.

Flip it around. You're running a game of Coyote and Crow. I want to play some Norse guy who got shipwrecked. (Look at me, I'm so special, the only white dude in fantasy North America!) Do you accommodate me? Do you role play everyone pantomiming to my character because I don't speak the language? Would you enjoy having every NPC encounter start with "Who the fuck is this hairy white devil?" Is catering to one jackass's conceit fun to you?

Quote from: rytrasmi on October 01, 2021, 03:10:34 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:47:12 PM
If you were playing in a historical game set after 1521, the presence of a Filipinio character in a European setting isn't difficult to explain - while unusual (like adventurers), it is plausible.

You're so tolerant you can't even be arsed to spell Filipino correctly.

A Filipino advernture in historic renaissance Europe would be exceedingly unlikely. The concept would need so much explanation and support that the game would end up revolving around that character. So, yeah, it's a snowflake move to try to hijack someone's game like that. If you agree to play in someone's world, you should respect the world.

Flip it around. You're running a game of Coyote and Crow. I want to play some Norse guy who got shipwrecked. (Look at me, I'm so special, the only white dude in fantasy North America!) Do you accommodate me? Do you role play everyone pantomiming to my character because I don't speak the language? Would you enjoy having every NPC encounter start with "Who the fuck is this hairy white devil?" Is catering to one jackass's conceit fun to you?

Of course not, including a white devil in Coyote & Crow would make it less Diverse don't you know?

And as deadDM pointed out:
If there is a ton of diversity in italy, why does it need more? Why does it need more of a specific kind of diversity? Is there a thing as too much diversity? If not, why. If yes, then what is it?

The ideology of diversity & representation only makes sense as a cover for a ideology of critical theory.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:59:05 PM

I'm specifically arguing that people who think representation is important should be represented.  Since you don't care, I don't care.  Or at least, not as it pertains to running a hypothetical game with you as a player.

But that's precisely why your argument *is* bullshit. If it matters - I don't see you campaigning for ALL the other poor filipinos in the world not getting THEIR representation in this hobby.

And you're going to use me as a poor excuse to not care? Dude you don't care because you didn't even think about it. No more than you're thinking about Berber representation. Or Bantu representation. etc. etc. You don't really care. The whole game about Representaiton and Diversity is a bullshit scam used for one purpose - to gaslight other white people into feeling shame for shit they had nothing to do with.

That shit may work on weak-willed sub-urb raised white coastals, but to actual people with brains (white and otherwise) we see the bullshit for what it is.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:59:05 PMA setting like Raveloft includes pulling in things (and characters) from any number of other worlds.  The conceit of the setting is that the plane is itself selecting and holding people.  IF SOMETHING IS IMPORTANT TO ME, you should have a reason why you're not allowing it.  That does not mean that every village in Ravenloft has to have a quota of specific minorities; but it also doesn't mean that it can't.  Likewise, any port city in any type of high-trade environment (like most published fantasy settings) should have people from the far-flung corners of the globe.

I love this... wait for it. "So you're saying" - people of color, and gender fluids don't need representation in print in Ravenloft? If they do - who is in and who isn't? Who makes the Combat Peg Legs for the Limb-impaired in Ravenloft? Bantu-Gepetto? Or Jorge the Bandito Lord of Duskwallow, with his sombrero wearing gay Filipino Tinikling Bard side-kick, Bong (yeah... a common Filipino name).

Who is in and who is out - and when we get to "out" part, we'll get to point at you for being clearly racist by your exclusion. <--- this is what SJW's do.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:59:05 PMIf you have every reason to include diversity, but you haven't, there really are only two reasons that make sense.  One - you thought about it and rejected it because you don't WANT diversity, or Two - you just didn't think about it.

But... I'm not the one demanding this shit. People like YOU are. And it's making the published work worse - not better. You forgot the third reason: You want to make a virtue signal to your fellow SJW's to prove contrary to your own new definitions of racism - you aren't racist. But the very *act* of doing this proves to every reasonable person that understands what actual racism is, that you are in fact a racist.

Now there are degrees to it to be sure - you may not be the knuckle-dragging kind of violent racist you imagine other non-SJW White folks to be (they're not). But you are the "POC's are really dumb second-class citizens we take pity on because they're too stupid to know better" kind of racist.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:59:05 PM#2 is what usually happens.  When I'm writing, race isn't necessarily important to me.  It's quite likely that failure to specify will cause people to assume the race they're most familiar with/comfortable with.  Reminding people to consider diversity isn't bad - it actually makes worlds seem MORE REALISTIC.

But that's not what's happening. WotC and these companies on the Red List demand it. Nevermind these same companies were hiring POC for *DECADES* to write for them based on their skill - not the color of their skin or the slant of their eyes. This is why you are a racist. You pretend that these things *actually* matter. You're the kind of person actually judging people based on their ethnic appearances - even RPG's can't really portray.

Do you think "This NPC that is the captain of the guard looks like a Filipino" <insert colorful description of a Visayan islander here> is *Representation* of Filipino culture? You know where we have ten-thousand islands, with different internal cultures (but united as Filipinos) suffices for "representaiton"? To WHOM? To Filipinos? No. To YOU and the rest of the largely white SJW audience? Of course it does - that's why you're self-flagellating racists by your own definition of Representation. Because it's not representaion. Don't try to confuse what we do at the table with what is being demanded in print.

I know - I'm one of those POC's they published. Just like a black man, "Maximum" Mike Pondsmith wrote the legendary Kara-Tur boxset. There is not a drop of Asian blood in his body, but I have yet to hear people scream "Cultural Appropriation". Because none of this shit you're talking about really matters.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:59:05 PMIn the real world, think about how many stereotypes you can think about for Germans versus Italians.  Keep in mind that they're people that share a border.  They have a lot of shared history.  And yet, they're VERY DIFFERENT.  Even within a single country (like Italy) where they share a language, a political structure, and popular entertainment, consider how many stereotypes exist between Northerners and Southerners.  Monocultures are unrealistic and boring.

SJW "culture" is monolithic and intensely racist (again by their own standards not mine). The problem you're claiming here is only valid to the point where people are willing to support that which is not that. It's been tried. Many times. I know personally - I'm a survivor of many many many of those ships that went down. I helped write Talislanta - because I loved the game, not because I need money - and it went nowhere.

Did you buy it by chance? if so - thank you. If not - what the fuck are you complaining about? It's so goddamn diverse there is not a white European in sight there - It literally has rainbow colored warriors, an all-female race of Amazon clones that rule as a matriarchy. That setting should make SJW's jizz liquid skittles into the air.

They didn't support it.

No, this is not about actual Representation - this is about politics. Pretending otherwise will not convince many here.

I think part of the problem here is that "diversity" and "representation" are buzzwords rather than well-defined positions. I avoid using them, and instead I try to talk about specific positions.

For me, it becomes clearer when we talk about specifics. For example, having gay characters in RPG modules. tenbones has said that it's inherently wrong for WotC to include gay characters in existing settings like Forgotten Realms, Eberron, or Greyhawk, because it's inserting modern politics where it doesn't belong. While I might like or dislike any given character, I don't agree with that as a policy. I think it's fine to have gay characters in modules. Conversely, I believe that most RPG publishers banned gay characters in the 70s and 80s, and that ban was wrong and rooted in the prejudice of the time.

Likewise, I have no problem with publishers releasing non-European settings like Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur, and so forth. Maybe they won't be the biggest thing, but I have no problem with them trying.

Quote from: tenbones on October 01, 2021, 02:47:34 PM
I call bullshit. You can't have it both ways. You can't talk about representation in the general - without being specific about who and why? I am a filipino. I've literally asked dozens of times about why no one advocates for my representation. If you were being honest about your position you would advocate for that representation despite the fact you know I don't care.

But you don't. For the exact reason I've cited - you don't *really* care. Hell how can you? You don't know dick about my culture. But yet - I'm a bigger minority than the fucking cultures you pretend to advocate for. So where does this stupid idea end?

I realize this was to deadDMwalking, but I'll answer for me. I don't advocate for anyone's representation. I don't advocate for my own representation. I will, though, run games that interest me - and those have included games set in Korea, like my 1860's pulp dragons campaign. I'll also advocate for games I like. If someone were to come out with a Filipino-based game, I'd give it a fair shot.

Quote from: tenbones on October 01, 2021, 02:47:34 PM
Magical Tinikiling poles for Bards? Yeah I can see this in my Ravenloft games. Makes PERFECT sense.

The original Ravenloft setting included non-European lands like Egyptian-inspired Har'akir with its mummy lord and Indian-inspired Sri Raji with its rakshasa lord. I think these fit with the tone because Ravenloft is inspired by 19th and early 20th century gothic fiction, which includes Near East and Far East settings for horror. It seems to me that Filipino elements could also be fittingly included - drawing inspiration from Filipino gothic horror like Gerardo de León's blood drinker films.

@jhkim - reasonable reply.

I *love* non-European settings - if only to bring my players there. I don't *require* them. The market has spoken *many* times as to the importance of such settings.

The implied issue here is for the people currently in control of D&D and it's orbiting studios and system-knockoffs, is that it's replete with these cultists that believe the reason for this market reality is *racism*.

It's *not*. It's about cultural preference. I could live like a fucking king in the Phillipines if I wanted to. It's more American there than Seattle by values. But I choose not to. It's a cultural preference.

The animus of those buzzwords have taken the exact life they were intended for - and that's exactly why I'm posting in this thread. I'm waiting for some chucklehead to tell me how the weaponized buzzwords and their real meaning have been good for this industry I've been in and part of for so long.

It's *always* been diverse. It's the SJW's with their own internal racist assumptions about non-whites with their presumed low-expectations  of agency that are the actual racists. They mistake modern corporate tokenism for "representation" when it only exists to ease the cannibal SJW's in their midst... it sure as fuck isn't for minorities. Again, I submit the endless list of cultures that have never seen their cultures represented in any RPG, much less D&D, and the glaring lack of SJW chorus for them unless they can weaponize it to beat other white people down with it. No it's purely politics.

Now to your real point about making RPG's set in real analog settings - I'm down for that stuff too, but time is money and its always going to be incumbent on the proper spin to make it fun. When I wrote Talislanta: The Savage Lands, there was a *lot* of my own personal experiences about my filipino culture (the tribal aspects) that informed me. And I feel really happy with the results. I don't *need* to make fantasy Philippines, but I'd make a fantasy Asian RPG with those elements in there. Someday.

@tenbones You must remember that we're now "POC" so if they include anyone black well that represents ALL the different cultures/ethnicities with that skin tone, if they include some "Brown bodies" then that represents all latinos and other cultures that more or less share that skin tone, if they include "Asians" well that surelly represents all of the different cultures/ethnicities in the continent.

Because to them we're all the same, inferior beings needing their protection and they don't really care for us beyond pointing to their virtue while doing jack shit in the real world.

How many of them have donated their time/work to go build houses for the trully poor of the world?

It's not even about the game as you correctly point out, it's about exerting control over the hobby by terrorizing the publishers "Nice company you have there, it would be a shame if someone would come and called you an istophobe".