Diversity and Representation are good. 

Let's start with Representation first.  It is historical fact that black ball players weren't allowed to play in Major League baseball.  Likewise, it is historical fact that black soldiers weren't allowed to serve in integrated units in the US Military.  In both cases, it was NOT because of a lack of ability.  Qualified people who could have excelled in those careers did not even consider them because they were not allowed.  Even if it was not officially a violation of policy, everyone KNEW how it worked, so there seemed no point in challenging the system. 

More importantly, when black baseball players and black soldiers performed as well or better than whites, it proved the lie of claims of racial superiority.  Proving their ability on a stage that could not be ignored helped lead to the successful challenge of discrimination supported by Federal Policy in myriad other ways. 

Representation comes first. 

On the subject of diversity, that can mean a lot of things.  But essentially, it means a broad type of experience and ways of thinking about the world.  A different view - a different way of doing things - can change the world.  It's very easy to prohibit women and/or minorities from sharing their views (or to rob them and credit someone more 'acceptable'), which in turn leads to a form of stagnation.  Inclusion doesn't mean that all ideas are inherently equal - some OUGHT to be better than others - but exposure to a large number of ideas helps 'the marketplace of ideas' produce the best ones. 

Exposure to more people means exposure to more ideas.  Some of them are going to be good - better than you've thought of on your own. 

Trying to be inclusive - welcoming people who don't agree with you or have different life experiences - can make your life better.  Maybe it's as simple as finding out that you love Ethiopian food, or maybe it's finding your spouse.  It's not a guarantee that your life will improve, but I think that exposure to new ways of doing things makes you more 'worldly'. 

The alternative is to remain 'provincial', and not even realize how much of the world you're missing. 

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 12:42:33 PMLet's start with Representation first.  It is historical fact that black ball players weren't allowed to play in Major League baseball.

The question isn't why segregation is good. Why is diversity/representation good. I know you conflate the two to muddy the discussion but thats what it is.

QuoteA different view - a different way of doing things - can change the world.

And it can also be a change for the worse.

QuoteTrying to be inclusive - welcoming people who don't agree with you or have different life experiences - can make your life better.

Or worse.

Coloring your walls red and wearing exclusively red shirts can make your life better. But nobody is saying 'Don't worry, this game is being made by people in PLENTY of red shirts. We made sure that we have red shirts in our team'.

That would be odd. Parading a neutral trait as a merit in it of itself.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 12:42:33 PM
Diversity and Representation are good. 

Let's start with Representation first.  It is historical fact that black ball players weren't allowed to play in Major League baseball.  Likewise, it is historical fact that black soldiers weren't allowed to serve in integrated units in the US Military.  In both cases, it was NOT because of a lack of ability.  Qualified people who could have excelled in those careers did not even consider them because they were not allowed.  Even if it was not officially a violation of policy, everyone KNEW how it worked, so there seemed no point in challenging the system. 

More importantly, when black baseball players and black soldiers performed as well or better than whites, it proved the lie of claims of racial superiority.  Proving their ability on a stage that could not be ignored helped lead to the successful challenge of discrimination supported by Federal Policy in myriad other ways. 

Representation comes first. 

On the subject of diversity, that can mean a lot of things.  But essentially, it means a broad type of experience and ways of thinking about the world.  A different view - a different way of doing things - can change the world.  It's very easy to prohibit women and/or minorities from sharing their views (or to rob them and credit someone more 'acceptable'), which in turn leads to a form of stagnation.  Inclusion doesn't mean that all ideas are inherently equal - some OUGHT to be better than others - but exposure to a large number of ideas helps 'the marketplace of ideas' produce the best ones. 

Exposure to more people means exposure to more ideas.  Some of them are going to be good - better than you've thought of on your own. 

Trying to be inclusive - welcoming people who don't agree with you or have different life experiences - can make your life better.  Maybe it's as simple as finding out that you love Ethiopian food, or maybe it's finding your spouse.  It's not a guarantee that your life will improve, but I think that exposure to new ways of doing things makes you more 'worldly'. 

The alternative is to remain 'provincial', and not even realize how much of the world you're missing.

Even granting you all of that is representation and diversity it's not what they are selling plus you still need to explain exactly why A pseudo medieval Europe NEEDS to have Maya people in it.

Do you understand that I don't need to see myself everywhere to be able to empathize with the characters?

Not to mention that reducing me to my ethnicity is pretty racist IMO.

You're also assuming ALL people of X group think alike or had the same experiences. Pro tip they don't.

You do know the proponents of all of this bollocks are the same people demanding I don't play a black person because reasons?

And demanding racial segregation everywhere.

You're following the advice of self admited racists. While dismising what "people of color" tell you because it goes against your cult's dogma.

I don't want nor need your "representation" what you understand by "diversity" nor your white saviour complex. I'm perfectly able to play elfgames in worlds where the Maya don't exist, because I'm not a psychopath.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 12:42:33 PM
On the subject of diversity, that can mean a lot of things.  But essentially, it means a broad type of experience and ways of thinking about the world. 

Nobody who talks about diversity has ever meant that.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 12:42:33 PM
Diversity and Representation are good. 

...

The alternative is to remain 'provincial', and not even realize how much of the world you're missing.

Uh, okay. I don't think anyone's arguing in favor of racism or sexism at their IRL game table. In the game world, that's a whole different story. You seem incapable of distinguishing the real world from game worlds.

Quote from: Pat on October 01, 2021, 01:02:24 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 12:42:33 PM
On the subject of diversity, that can mean a lot of things.  But essentially, it means a broad type of experience and ways of thinking about the world. 

Nobody who talks about diversity has ever meant that.

Remember that for the woke Ethnicity/Race = Culture/Experience/Ideology

"If you don't vote for Joe you ain't black"

To them I SHOULD want to play a Maya/Spaniard mongrel and nothing else because THEY can't feel empathy for other people, one of the warning signs of a Psycho.

You know, I never thought it was about 'diversity and representation' when I played a Redguard in Morrowind. It was all about the Adrenaline Rush power and the solid resistances to disease and poison.

Back in ancient times, we had supplements dedicated entirely to non-white non-western campaign settings like Nyambe and Rokugan. We had emerging genres like Afro fantasy, Asian fantasy, Latin fantasy, etc that showcased the sheer diversity of human cultures and aesthetics. Just raceswapping people in generic faux medieval Europe feels like... what's the cultural equivalent of racism? Culturism? Imperialism? It feels very imperialist to see the fantasy genre dominated by generic faux medieval European pastiche. That said, I'd be satisfied to see a generic faux Europe setting where all the humans are black or Asian or whatever rather than reflecting a diversity quota with no world building behind it.

The Wheel of Time show racebent everyone to, as the leaked script explains it, reflect the Amazon writers' vision of future USA as a multicolor paradise. (Altho realistically the majority of the population of a brown USA will be about as "brown" as Eiza González. Which the more forward-looking SJWs are now complaining about.) What exactly led to the region being so diverse that even small isolated villages tick the diversity quota? Do genetics just work differently on this planet? Fuck you, the writer's don't give a shit.

This obsession with "diversity" is one of the reasons why I no longer intend to write white characters anymore in my prose. If all my characters are one specific non-white race, then adaptations won't racebend them for diversity quotas because racebending non-whites to be other non-whites is too racist even for Hollywood racists. Well, at least until the SJW's anti-Latino, anti-Asian, and Anti-Indian racism reaches the same levels as their anti-white racism.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 01, 2021, 12:50:53 PM
The question isn't why segregation is good. Why is diversity/representation good. I know you conflate the two to muddy the discussion but thats what it is.

When something is absent, not everyone notices it.  As a white dude, watching a movie that is full of nothing but white dudes (like Lord of the Rings) never strikes me as weird.  But the world that is portrayed in the movies looks nothing like the world I live in.  We KNOW that there are people of other ethnicities - but they're not really represented in the movies/books.  Asking the question: should they have been included? isn't a problem.  We can disagree on the answer...  Keeping in mind that I dressed as Aragorn for Halloween ~1987, I KNOW that having a heroic role-model that you identify with is a good thing.  It's not REQUIRED that your role-models share your race or gender, but it is important that you can identify with them.  Having physical traits in common certainly helps. 

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 01, 2021, 12:50:53 PM

QuoteA different view - a different way of doing things - can change the world.

And it can also be a change for the worse.

I'm not arguing that all ideas are equally good.  I am proposing that EXPOSURE to more ideas is actually a good thing.  That's what education is.  Now, if you're educated enough, you can evaluate different ideas and different ways of doing things and build consensus around the best ones. 

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 01, 2021, 12:50:53 PM
Coloring your walls red and wearing exclusively red shirts can make your life better. But nobody is saying 'Don't worry, this game is being made by people in PLENTY of red shirts. We made sure that we have red shirts in our team'.

That would be odd. Parading a neutral trait as a merit in it of itself.

I don't know what you're trying to say here.  Is 'liking red shirts' supposed to equate to life experiences?  Because I am quite confident that running ideas and jokes past people that are all the same race/gender/socio-economic status is going to get you a non-representative response.  If your goal is something that appeals to a broad cross-section of people (and for most entertainers it is), getting the opinions and incorporating the ideas of a broad cross-section absolutely makes sense in that regard.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 12:56:47 PM
Even granting you all of that is representation and diversity it's not what they are selling plus you still need to explain exactly why A pseudo medieval Europe NEEDS to have Maya people in it.

No, I don't.  I didn't make the claim that it did.  In fact, no one is saying that a medieval simulation needs Maya people in it if no one wants them there.  But, and this is a huge but - if a player wants to be a Maya character that's worth exploring.  If you're playing a strict medieval simulator, that may not work at all.  But if you're playing a fantasy world with teleport, or a fantasy race that has characteristics in common with Maya culture, maybe an option that's acceptable to everyone at the table is possible. 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 12:56:47 PM
Do you understand that I don't need to see myself everywhere to be able to empathize with the characters?

Do you understand that this isn't about you?  It's great that you don't feel the need to have someone that shares cultural traits with you in order to have fun with a game.  I'm sure most people are quite capable of having fun with a character that is very different from them - like a nerdy guy in glasses enjoying playing a hulking orc.  But sometimes it's MORE FUN to play someone that you identify with, and I think saying no to that without good reason is a bad idea. It's a game of imagination - if you can't find an imaginative way to 'say yes' to your players, I think that reflects poorly on you.  Now if none of your players want something, it's a non-issue.  It is specifically only in the case that someone is asking for something that this comes up. 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 12:56:47 PM
Not to mention that reducing me to my ethnicity is pretty racist IMO.

I didn't do that.  I also didn't say that you want to/don't want to play a character that shares your ethnicity. I am saying that there are times and places where some people would prefer that.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 12:56:47 PM
You're also assuming ALL people of X group think alike or had the same experiences. Pro tip they don't.

No, I'm not.  I'm saying 'if someone expresses a specific preference, it's good to try to accommodate it'. If you don't want to play a Maya character, but your friend does, and I'm running the game, I'm going to look at whether that's possible.  And maybe instead of playing a simulationist medieval England game, we might play in Forgotten Realms where it IS POSSIBLE. 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 12:56:47 PM
You do know the proponents of all of this bollocks are the same people demanding I don't play a black person because reasons?

No. I don't know that.  Who is demanding that you don't play a black character?  Who is demanding that you don't play a female character?  Who is demanding that you don't play an elf?  Role-playing games let you put yourself in someone else's shoes - at least, they should.  Now, not everyone can handle it.  If you play all female characters as over-sexed hornballs, maybe people will tell you that you shouldn't try to play female characters.  Not because it's inherently wrong - just because you're very bad at it. 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 12:56:47 PM
I don't want nor need your "representation" what you understand by "diversity" nor your white saviour complex. I'm perfectly able to play elfgames in worlds where the Maya don't exist, because I'm not a psychopath.

More power to you.  If you're having fun, you're doing it right.  If someone ISN'T having fun because they can't play the character that they want, I think you should try to address that.  That's not always possible - some people want to play in a game that is all about them and their needs, and have no consideration for what other people want.  But if you're saying that other players can't play what they want because of how it affects YOU, well, you might be the problem.

Anyway the true reasons that the SJWs at the top of the pyramid believe:

White men are evil and spoiled the world. Presence and importance are a fixed thing that they undeservedly stole in the past by being so prominent.

In removing them from the culture, swapping them out and such, they are correcting a past injustice.

When superman is made a guy black woman, the useful idiots parrot "well its representation, do its good somehow", but the real reason is because the people at the top believe that superman should have always been gay and black they are just returning the scenario to justice.

Critical theory is a mad rejection of reality and the very idea of normalcy. Anything thats against current reality is therefore good.

A new character within the system is co-towing to what they believe is an unjust system. Thats why the system must be undermined, subverted, and destroyed.

It has fuck all to do with representation or diversity.

Peoples skin color, gender, and sexual preference are NOT cultures.

"Multi-culturalism" has never historically worked. When you have people identifying with sub-cultures and different values than the mainline culture and are intolerant to that mainline culture - you are, in fact, not being diverse. You're in conflict.

This is exactly how leftism has promulgated throughout American society. Those of us that have lived in the third-world see this shit, grew up with this shit, and now we're watching it proliferate here through deracinated white people that are clueless as to WHY America got to be how it is. Instead they use this retarded and unhistorical narrative about slavery to explain their ignorance of actual history. It's especially egregious to hear it today. Because the pretense that America is some kind of racist country... let me tell you, go to Asia and try this bullshit there. Tell the Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans you need to have more gay and black representation in their media and watch what happens.

No one has advocated for my representation yet. I'm doing just fine. So who are we advocating for? Who exactly is being left out of gaming? Who is unable to create their own cultural analog setting?

The real indictment is that the unspoken clause to all this is this: If you DON'T consume other sub-cultural elements you're a racist/phobe. Which is complete horseshit. Nyambe - I own it. Al-Qadim - I own it and designed for it, Kara-Tur - love it to death, own everything for it. These all failed because people, including SJW's, didn't support it enough. Welcome to reality. Now we have to just randomly seed all games with Africans, Asians, and Middle-Eastern people... at the expense of setting verisimilitude? Yeah get that shit out of here.

It's like walking into China and demanding their culture have more representation of Mexicans, because .01 of the Chinese population is Mexican and hates Chinese culture.

I'd love for SJW's to tell me which is more racist in this scenario? The Mexicans or the Chinese? Or are Magically evil white-people the only ones capable of being racist?

Am I *supposed* to be outraged there are no Filipino Boxsets? Please oh please white people, tell me to what degree I should be angry or triggered?

Quote from: tenbones on October 01, 2021, 02:38:22 PM
Am I *supposed* to be outraged there are no Filipino Boxsets? Please oh please white people, tell me to what degree I should be angry or triggered?

No.  You are not supposed to be triggered.  If it's important to you, you could create one.  Since you've got publishing credits, I'm confident you can pull it off if you want to. 

BUT if you're interested in playing a Filipino character (or a fantasy character that has Filipino cultural traits) and people are telling you that you're bad to want it, or that you're some special snowflake, or that you should be content with playing a character that looks exactly like they do - you wouldn't be wrong to push back.

If you were playing in a historical game set after 1521, the presence of a Filipinio character in a European setting isn't difficult to explain - while unusual (like adventurers), it is plausible. 

@ DeadDMWalking

I call bullshit. You can't have it both ways. You can't talk about representation in the general - without being specific about who and why? I am a filipino. I've literally asked dozens of times about why no one advocates for my representation. If you were being honest about your position you would advocate for that representation despite the fact you know I don't care.

But you don't. For the exact reason I've cited - you don't *really* care. Hell how can you? You don't know dick about my culture. But yet - I'm a bigger minority than the fucking cultures you pretend to advocate for. So where does this stupid idea end?

Magical Tinikiling poles for Bards? Yeah I can see this in my Ravenloft games. Makes PERFECT sense.

How far shall we undermine the conceits of a setting to the Hecklers Veto? Because that's what this is. All the weirdos and degenerates now want their representation too. At the expense of everyone else that doesn't. When does it cease to be what brought us all together in the first place?

Quote from: deadDMwalking on October 01, 2021, 02:47:12 PM

Quote from: tenbones on October 01, 2021, 02:38:22 PM
Am I *supposed* to be outraged there are no Filipino Boxsets? Please oh please white people, tell me to what degree I should be angry or triggered?

No.  You are not supposed to be triggered.  If it's important to you, you could create one.  Since you've got publishing credits, I'm confident you can pull it off if you want to. 

BUT if you're interested in playing a Filipino character (or a fantasy character that has Filipino cultural traits) and people are telling you that you're bad to want it, or that you're some special snowflake, or that you should be content with playing a character that looks exactly like they do - you wouldn't be wrong to push back.

If you were playing in a historical game set after 1521, the presence of a Filipinio character in a European setting isn't difficult to explain - while unusual (like adventurers), it is plausible.

That's right. But if you know anything about publishing - you have limited space. What is the point of putting in material specifically for me that is out of context with everything else?

That's the problem. It's because of politics - it has NOTHING to do with actual representation.

Quote from: tenbones on October 01, 2021, 02:38:22 PM
Am I *supposed* to be outraged there are no Filipino Boxsets? Please oh please white people, tell me to what degree I should be angry or triggered?

Don't know.  But I suspect the answer is that if you aren't angry or triggered all the time, you are falling short.