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Author Topic: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby  (Read 27472 times)

tenbones

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #120 on: September 30, 2021, 03:14:28 PM »
by my CHOICE. Not by their limp-dick coercion.
If the problem is coercion then one solution is take away the power away to have an effect. Hence why I am strong advocate of open content. Let's face it, if pinnacle goes south either socially, financially, or another reason that prevent Savage World from being supported or actively published then you and the Savage World are fucked with not recourse other than "wink wink" "nudge nudge" style of sharing.

With D&D 5e is that not case. if D&D 5.5 turns out not to be any particular group cup of tea. There still the SRD as open content.

And yes it is not simplistic, some people like stuff like the Feywild, Beholder, and Mind Flayers and other non-open content as part of the support they get.

It sucks that I am not going to touch the Wilderlands again while the Bledsaws own the IP. But by doing the Majestic Fantasy Realms, I don't have to worry about what they are doing and still share a lot of what I did using the ideas that I grew up with Judges Guild. And I will ensure that other don't have to rely on me by making most of what I do open content.

If it not the SJWs it the Christians, if not the Christians, it is the concerned mothers (BADD), and so on. It will never end as long there is a single point of control, the IP holder, then we will have this problem over and over again until a hundred years from now it becomes public domain.

We can fix it ourselves right now by making open content and sharing it. That way everybody's cudgel gets taken away. It won't be an utopia but it would be far more fair. And combined with digital technology it will enable folks coming from left-field or a place or culture that never had a tradition of roleplaying to start out without seeking rent or permission from entrenched interests.

Excellent points as always.

That is something worth considering for SW fans (obviously myself). I've given this some thought as I'm in the middle of making a Savage Worlds project for publication... My further plans were to create a house-system so I'm not completely married to Savage Worlds.

Something I did not consider was making it Open Source. This is something I'm going to seriously consider, and I'll probably get feedback from you the rest of Mos Eisley when the time comes. I'm a LONG way from doing the house-system for myself, but I have some solid ideas on its foundation. But it might be worth building from the ground up as an Open Source system.

I'm pretty divorced from D&D's core mechanics. But I could see myself building an Open Source flavor of it, as we've discussed in other threads here. Lots of food for thought.

tenbones

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #121 on: September 30, 2021, 03:17:11 PM »
Well said Tenbones, and BTW I like to say that my wife is a “Jungle Asian” too 😄

You have good taste in games and women, heh.

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #122 on: September 30, 2021, 03:21:53 PM »
Something I did not consider was making it Open Source. This is something I'm going to seriously consider, and I'll probably get feedback from you the rest of Mos Eisley when the time comes. I'm a LONG way from doing the house-system for myself, but I have some solid ideas on its foundation. But it might be worth building from the ground up as an Open Source system.
Be glad to help with any useful advice I may have. I am glad you are considering doing something for yourself and others and sharing it.

Jaeger

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #123 on: September 30, 2021, 03:34:53 PM »
...
Something I did not consider was making it Open Source. This is something I'm going to seriously consider, and I'll probably get feedback from you the rest of Mos Eisley when the time comes. I'm a LONG way from doing the house-system for myself, but I have some solid ideas on its foundation. But it might be worth building from the ground up as an Open Source system.
...

IMHO games with OGL's have all but killed off the previous 'universal game system' kings like HERO and GURPS.

Because people don't really want to work through a big tome and construct a game from the ground up.

Most would much rather take a game that they are already familiar with, like D&D that already does 80% of what they want, and then hack the rest.

Much less work.

And now they get to do it without the potential of cease and desist letter hanging over their head if they want to widely share it online..

The game systems that really seem to have legs these days are all open source, or like SW have a very friendly 3pp policy.

If people like your system - they will want to fiddle with it. If they can do so without being sued, they may even publish new games using it.

This creates a bigger word of mouth and network effect for your game that would not otherwise exist. Allowing your system to punch above its weight so to speak in RPG land.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 03:36:54 PM by Jaeger »
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estar

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #124 on: September 30, 2021, 03:43:43 PM »
IMHO games with OGL's have all but killed off the previous 'universal game system' kings like HERO and GURPS.

Because people don't really want to work through a big tome and construct a game from the ground up.
True but we also have the example of Fate which started as bunch of RPGs that happen to share a system like Chaosium's BRP and later got a omnibus rule book, Fate Core.

And it could work that the omnibus rule book just a SRD that exists as a digital publisher's aide much in the same way OSRIC 1e was supposed to work. If the demand is there then somebody can make a go of it to turn the SRD into a traditional rulebook which is what happened with OSRIC 2e.

estar

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #125 on: September 30, 2021, 03:49:42 PM »
Duplicate

jhkim

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #126 on: September 30, 2021, 03:58:31 PM »
  About the words harassment and threats... I think I define these differently than is being used here.  If someone shows up to where you work, in person and starts making a stink, or runs into you in the store, etc that to me is harassment.  If someone says they are going to do you harm, and then shows up at your house... that is a threat.  When I was a kid, getting a threatening phone call to my father's house...it was called Tuesday, not a threat.  Now when the guys, came to kill him, and attempted to ambush him in the front yard by opening all the doors on my mother's car and turning her lights on...that was a threat.  A true threat condition then, my brother and I could not live at home for a month.

  The words threaten and harass get over used a bit.  Talking shit online, to me is just words.  I guess online campaigns to get you fired that have some traction, then we can talk harassment.  I just think those words are way, way over used today.   Every person who gets a message online where someone says they hope they die is a death threat.  No, that is some spurg spouting off online.

I'm sorry you had to go through that, oggsmash, and obviously, actual murder attempts are far worse than words. Still, that doesn't mean that behavior like doxing and online harassment is acceptable.

Too often, I think online behavior is given a pass which would be unacceptable in real life. Even if there wasn't a physical threat, having people following my wife around and telling her to suck a cock whenever she appeared in public would be unacceptable behavior. I don't know the exact legalities of it, but I'm pretty sure I could call the police to get them to stop - even though it was just words. But when the trolls were posting this on her different social media accounts, it seemed more dismissed. Thankfully, at that time my son was only 7 and he didn't have any social media yet. Trolls posted his picture around saying things like how they wanted to punch him in the face, but he didn't see that.

Physical violence would be much worse, and I'm not trying to draw any equivalence, but I can still say that both are frickin bad and shouldn't happen.

GriswaldTerrastone
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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #127 on: September 30, 2021, 03:59:38 PM »
The problem seems to be a total disconnect from reality.

This is 2021. Unlike in my day there is a little something called "the Modern Internet," which allows use of another little something called "Twitch TV." I myself watch games on that channel when I can on Monday and Tuesday nights. Heck, in that "other games" bar on the left there was even one for a game with "transsexual" players for crying out loud- it was right there!

PDF game manuals exist. Easy to find.

When one says there is a need for "greater diversity and representation" in the gaming world then that cannot not exist today- obviously anyone can get a game together of any sort.

If they are talking about the game itself how is it possible to get more diversity in AD&D when you can play almost anything within reason? Gone are the days where you pretty much had to play a human or humanoid, you can be a dragonborn, a spell-slinging kobold, a half-devil, a...you get the point. One Twitch TV game had anthro-creatures, including a sort of raccoonish creature, set in a prehistoric world.


So if they mean hiring practices then everyone must know it was only a quota system that explains the staff, nothing more. But who really cares about that- it's the product that gets all of the attention. And it must be obvious by now that IT'S NEVER ENOUGH. Obviously there must always be a need for "more," but what happens when it reaches saturation, 100%? The only thing left will be the bosses themselves who will end up in the crosshairs, even the top CEOs. Wonder what will happen then?

Seems to be a logical fallacy here somewhere in all of this...

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Jaeger

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #128 on: September 30, 2021, 04:31:42 PM »
...
True but we also have the example of Fate which started as bunch of RPGs that happen to share a system like Chaosium's BRP and later got a omnibus rule book, Fate Core.

And it could work that the omnibus rule book just a SRD that exists as a digital publisher's aide much in the same way OSRIC 1e was supposed to work. If the demand is there then somebody can make a go of it to turn the SRD into a traditional rulebook which is what happened with OSRIC 2e.


In my opinion:

I always saw the omnibus rule books that came out of those games as a hacking reference for the hardcores.

Fate, and especially BRP had long since made their bones by offering their RPG system in many genres as full games.

GURPS did the reverse; A tome, with supplement books for the genres.

HERO did some full games, champion, fantasy hero, etc. but it was perpetually saddled by the weight of its complex powers system. And they made things worse for themselves when they went the universal GURPs route.

IMHO - The Fate, and BRP model has come off much better in the long run.
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tenbones

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #129 on: September 30, 2021, 05:06:23 PM »
When one says there is a need for "greater diversity and representation" in the gaming world then that cannot not exist today- obviously anyone can get a game together of any sort.

If they are talking about the game itself how is it possible to get more diversity in AD&D when you can play almost anything within reason? Gone are the days where you pretty much had to play a human or humanoid, you can be a dragonborn, a spell-slinging kobold, a half-devil, a...you get the point. One Twitch TV game had anthro-creatures, including a sort of raccoonish creature, set in a prehistoric world.

You are looking at this from the surface as a consumer - as most people do. But if you think about it, the truth is these companies (i.e. Corporations, i'm not talking about these independent game-studios) don't really give a flying shit about Representation or Diversity as they present it or as you understand it.

People with those interests do not play the same kinds of games the mainstream core of D&D is playing at their own tables. If it were monetarily lucrative to do so - Hasbro would be making settings *specifically* for that crowd. There is no real attempt at doing that - there is only the veneer of it. Very caricaturish representations that largely leftist white people "think" of minorities, and disabled people - tokens to their cartoonish views of these poor oppressed people that exist only in their own minds.

Case in point - when companies DO make content specifically for these Woke folks, I mean really attempt to give them what they say they want you get shit like Sword Lesbians, and Netflix's Q-Force which is over the top. And even LGBT people cringe at it. This is what they really think of themselves and others.

It's like watching 30 Rock, which was right at the cultural cusp of the Proto-Woke movement when all these Leftist Actors like Alec Baldwin and Tina Fey are talking *mad* shit about the people that are currently Woke, but the writing assumes they're not being watched. It's literally 4th Wall breaking (it's actually 5th wall - because they're literally writing it and acting it and it's very funny but they know they're only half-joking). Yes they look down on minorities but pretend to their face to care. Liz Lemon (the main character) is a *horrible* person, which is what makes it funny, the irony is because it's really true, but they could *never* make that show today. I'm shocked that show is still being shown on Netflix frankly... it'll get the Office treatment soon and be censored episode by episode.

The only representation that exists for these racist asshats is the kind that further tokenizes people. Because the normal rules of cultural psychology apply: People with similar cultural values like to hang around those like themselves. SJW's have internalized this to be demonic bigotry - and in rebellion to those conventions have invented their own sub-cultures which ultimately only mimic the worst elements of the cultures they say they hate.

Hence Wokeism has many of the most horrible aspects of western theology - Original Sin (White Privilege), Lextalionis (Eye for an Eye - the only problem here is because they believe in White Privilege, everyone that doesn't believe as they do needs to be punished), they have an indoctrination process which like all fundmentalist religions requires preying upon some perceived weakness - in this case it's White Fragility, which they use to gaslight people into believing in their Original Sin (White Privilege), they do this by an endless series of Purity Tests designed for you to capitulate or be ostracized until you fall into line where they can reprogram you to look at everything through their myopic lens of reality (in this case Intersectional Grievances based on the assumed oppression of White Male Dominate Culture).

The bad actors here are not necessarily 100% pure - to be sure - in their own ideology. But the game is to pretend to everyone else in the Cult that they are. And there is no better way to do it than to do it on Social Media or spend some corporate capital to show all the Peoples of Color, the Gender Fluids, and the Disabled are being given token nods at the expense of all existing culture. Now buy my product.

The real Cultists lead the charge in the Red List as they are given corporate cover as useful morons. And hey - they get some clout to further prove their purity to the rest of the Cultists at our expense. There is money in tearing down the edifices of existing Greco-Roman Western European culture, and armed with a complete ignorance of history, they've managed to replace those edifices with the worst cargo-cult effigies that were mostly weeded out already by the mainline culture.

As the old adage goes about dooming oneself to repeat history...

So if they mean hiring practices then everyone must know it was only a quota system that explains the staff, nothing more. But who really cares about that- it's the product that gets all of the attention. And it must be obvious by now that IT'S NEVER ENOUGH. Obviously there must always be a need for "more," but what happens when it reaches saturation, 100%? The only thing left will be the bosses themselves who will end up in the crosshairs, even the top CEOs. Wonder what will happen then?

Seems to be a logical fallacy here somewhere in all of this...

The fallacy is that people in the Cult actually believe their corporate slave masters give a shit. The Corporate slave masters are terrified of their slaves - because they are cannibals. We are the barbarians of the Old World... and they want us dead because they believe we had nothing to do with the Old Empire because they're too stupid to read a book.

And the ones that actually read the book are too stupid to understand it, but benefit from telling the others an even more stupid version of history and apparently they actually believe them.

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« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 05:14:06 PM by tenbones »

oggsmash

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #130 on: September 30, 2021, 06:29:49 PM »
  About the words harassment and threats... I think I define these differently than is being used here.  If someone shows up to where you work, in person and starts making a stink, or runs into you in the store, etc that to me is harassment.  If someone says they are going to do you harm, and then shows up at your house... that is a threat.  When I was a kid, getting a threatening phone call to my father's house...it was called Tuesday, not a threat.  Now when the guys, came to kill him, and attempted to ambush him in the front yard by opening all the doors on my mother's car and turning her lights on...that was a threat.  A true threat condition then, my brother and I could not live at home for a month.

  The words threaten and harass get over used a bit.  Talking shit online, to me is just words.  I guess online campaigns to get you fired that have some traction, then we can talk harassment.  I just think those words are way, way over used today.   Every person who gets a message online where someone says they hope they die is a death threat.  No, that is some spurg spouting off online.

I'm sorry you had to go through that, oggsmash, and obviously, actual murder attempts are far worse than words. Still, that doesn't mean that behavior like doxing and online harassment is acceptable.

Too often, I think online behavior is given a pass which would be unacceptable in real life. Even if there wasn't a physical threat, having people following my wife around and telling her to suck a cock whenever she appeared in public would be unacceptable behavior. I don't know the exact legalities of it, but I'm pretty sure I could call the police to get them to stop - even though it was just words. But when the trolls were posting this on her different social media accounts, it seemed more dismissed. Thankfully, at that time my son was only 7 and he didn't have any social media yet. Trolls posted his picture around saying things like how they wanted to punch him in the face, but he didn't see that.

Physical violence would be much worse, and I'm not trying to draw any equivalence, but I can still say that both are frickin bad and shouldn't happen.

  I think the online harassment comes from the simple fact a person can do it and have zero balls.  Where I live, if a guy comes up to me and tells my wife to suck his cock, I beat the shit out of him, the police come, tell him he used fighting words, and he learns a hard lesson.  I have no idea how other states handle this (I know there is a massive range on what one can and can not do in response to provoking language).   The simple fact is, people posting things online are not threats or harassment, they are cowards doing what they do.  Now, I will say doxxing is a bit different, because that is more a case of a coward attempting to shine a light on you for some nut to see.   I guess if I got doxxed in that scenario, I would hire an investigator to track down my doxxer, and I would go to their house and fix it.  I am not suggesting that is the correct action for everyone, but people act as they do online because they do not get their teeth broken when they say rude things about people's spouses, kids, etc.   

   I just think the nature of the people who do that sort of stuff make it not a threat (to me, a threat has to be credible), with the exception of doxxing being an implied threat, to which I would do as I said, I would go to their residence and we would work it out.  I also do not mean to single you out on this, I constantly see people on tv, from right, left and center, call things that are not really harassment or threats just that.   I think these things are extremely rude, and are behaviors the people who engage in them certainly would not do if there was any chance of a real consequence.  The main reason my father did not get killed, is he did not go outside when traps were set, and the people who wanted to do harm were not going to actually attempt to break in (as they would have likely died then) to do their thing.  As it was, they were not motivated enough to continue their attempts, as they likely got caught up in other crime crap.  They were after my father due to a dude who had assassinated a police officer who looked a lot like my father.  My father had arrested this guy for a DUI a year or so before, and he made a phony police call to lure a cop as he thought the other cop was my father.  When the guy got there, the assassin shot him 3 times in the head, killing him on the spot.  After he was in jail, a TV reporter, on tv (back then for all to see with the grand 3 channels everyone had to watch) asked my father if he was concerned for his safety, after making a big deal as to how much the two men looked alike.  Needless to say my father was pissed off, knowing the reporter had a source telling him my father was the intended target, and explained to the reporter if he did not inform him of any impending harm and any harm came to his family, he would react in an impulsive manner.  Mr reporter about shit his pants. 


   Any how, I think lots of people play up some of these things bigger than they are with regard to physical safety.  Most cowards making threats are not going to do anything.  The people who do real harm are the people who attempt to get people de-personed, or character assassinated digitally in such a way they never find work again.  That...is more grey to me, and I think a problem, and what the SJW left engages in big time these days, and I know the 'right' did it in the past, but I do not live in the past, and what I called wrong then is wrong now.  But reality is, even though a person who actively works to have you fired and unemployable likely would not mind if you died, they are not willing IMO to actually do physical harm to anyone (again, cowards).   

  Rambling aside, I do have some concerns that these online behaviors could possibly spill over into real life to some degree,  Likely carried out by some moron who is heavily medicated and looking for a  problem.    I just think we need to be careful in how we talk about what is going on and what could be going on.  Famous people constantly talk about "death threats" they get online, and I think almost all of those are doofuses with access to the internet, and in no way credible threats.   I do not blame you for taking their words seriously, they were putting your family into the picture.  I do think if you are going to call what they did threats, you should have either talked to the police (granted they are not likely to do shit, but it helps to have a paper trail started if something did ever happen, or... you had to do a bit of problem solving yourself) or taken my route and hired someone to track them down and speak with them. 
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 06:35:20 PM by oggsmash »

Jaeger

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #131 on: September 30, 2021, 09:02:24 PM »
...
People with those interests do not play the same kinds of games the mainstream core of D&D is playing at their own tables. If it were monetarily lucrative to do so - Hasbro would be making settings *specifically* for that crowd. There is no real attempt at doing that - there is only the veneer of it. ...

Exactly.

If "SJW Woke" really was a selling point, then the Blue Rose RPG would be known in the hobby for more than just its magic deer...

There is a reason SJWs have to infiltrate and converge established institutions and IPs: Because they are creatively bankrupt.

People are buying and playing D&D in spite of the SJW inclusions, not because of them.

But as we have seen with Dr. Who, Star Wars, Star Trek, and superhero comic book fans, they are extremely long suffering when it comes to their favorite geek IPs.

I mean ridiculously long suffering!

But even these Golden Goose geek IPs managed to drive their main fan base away, and turn themselves into absolute jokes of what they once were.

Because Woke.

They make the mistake of conflating Tolerance with Acceptance.

The delude themselves with the idea that if someone doesn't care about what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home, or the choices they make for themselves in their private personal lives; It must mean that they would love seeing those private personal behaviors and choices constantly pushed in their escapist media as good and wonderful things.

Nope. Sorry; there are very good reasons why every tv show and movie that has characters in straight relationships does not regularly feature Pegging and BDSM play.

This is not hard.

Sooner or later pushing the Woke will exceed the tolerance level of an IPs fandom, and cause them to walk away.

Go Woke go Broke, is a real thing.

But we must always remember that for SJWs: 'go Broke' is a victory condition...
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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #132 on: September 30, 2021, 11:44:37 PM »
...
People with those interests do not play the same kinds of games the mainstream core of D&D is playing at their own tables. If it were monetarily lucrative to do so - Hasbro would be making settings *specifically* for that crowd. There is no real attempt at doing that - there is only the veneer of it. ...

Exactly.

If "SJW Woke" really was a selling point, then the Blue Rose RPG would be known in the hobby for more than just its magic deer...

Wait!





Blue Rose has magic deer?


That changes everything.
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tenbones

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #133 on: October 01, 2021, 12:02:20 PM »
This is why no one is telling me how Diversity and Representation is "good".

It's an endless parade of jargon on the backs of Corporate shilling while mining the IP's good will and turning it to dust.

This is *across* the cultural board.

The very culture writ-large that produced all this stuff we used to share is being undermined by morons and degenerate weirdos that want to punish everyone for not giving a shit about their personal kinks and mental issues.

Because I'm a very patient man, and if I can go 43-years active service in this Hobby without anyone advocating for my representation or even asking me nicely if I'd like it (nevermind that *I* personally have never been narcissitic enough do it myself in my own work or the stuff I've written professionally unless you count Beastmen in Talislanta), there is little chance these leftist assholes (who if held to their own standards are apparently racists for NOT representing me at all, how ironic) will do it.

And hey - despite all this non-representation, I'm doing pretty damn good.

If the claim is I'd be doing better *because* of this magical Representation, I'm *still* waiting to hear HOW.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #134 on: October 01, 2021, 12:38:16 PM »
So to answer the question: There isn't any major importance.

A diversity of ideas could mix it up, but not necacarily. It could also make a hobby loose focus. Getting people who hate fishing to like fishing generally will make fishing less fun for the people that like fishing.

Diversity as its been marketted, is a ideological scam to let bad faith actors subvert mediums in the persuit of critical theory. Thats it.