right. Why are *we* required to give the benefit of the doubt to people whose very ideology makes them hypocritical bad actors in the first place.

I merely point to the RPGsite - say what you will about it, this place exists *because* the majority of people here have been forced out of our other haunts.

@jhkim This is why I find you a sketchy actor many times in these discussions. I  want to give you credit but your points are so often so disingenuous. I'm not saying you don't have points - but in light of the larger issue, which you can definitely see, you always do this SJW-habitual thing of using some outlier to justify your point which you then obtusely pretend is not in fact, and outlier. This is precisely what SJW's do as a matter of course in their rhetoric.

How can a cause based on allegedly forcing "equality" for *minorities* ever hit parity without sacrificing segments of the majority in *anything*? That's a logic question that does not require any specifics.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:02:33 PM
So we're left with the word of those who call me an istophobe that they got threats, blackmail, slander and harassment?

The same people that claim that Orcs are a standin for black people?

The same people that claim that ANY depiction of a scantily clad woman leads to rape?

The same people that say that the OK sign is white supremacy?

You'll excuse me if I press X to doubt.

I think we're talking past each other here. The issue of threats and blackmail came from King Tyranno's post a little while ago:

Quote from: King Tyranno on September 28, 2021, 01:58:14 PM
Most people here are probably all for the usual crowd to go off and play whatever degenerate shit they come up with. We can laugh at them, parody them and above all criticize them. But no one is going to go actively out of there way to threaten, blackmail and bully SJWs out of the hobby or industry. Unlike them.

So King Tyranno says that SJWs are threatening and blackmailing people out of the hobby.

Then I speak out against threatening and blackmailing.

Then you come down on me that threats and blackmail aren't happening or are lies.

I'm not making claims about anyone getting threats other than myself (and my family) many years ago. I don't know the extent of the problem today within gaming. But if it is happening to whatever extent, then I'm opposed and I'd want to work against it.

Quote from: jhkim on September 29, 2021, 05:41:14 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:02:33 PM
So we're left with the word of those who call me an istophobe that they got threats, blackmail, slander and harassment?

The same people that claim that Orcs are a standin for black people?

The same people that claim that ANY depiction of a scantily clad woman leads to rape?

The same people that say that the OK sign is white supremacy?

You'll excuse me if I press X to doubt.

I think we're talking past each other here. The issue of threats and blackmail came from King Tyranno's post a little while ago:

Quote from: King Tyranno on September 28, 2021, 01:58:14 PM
Most people here are probably all for the usual crowd to go off and play whatever degenerate shit they come up with. We can laugh at them, parody them and above all criticize them. But no one is going to go actively out of there way to threaten, blackmail and bully SJWs out of the hobby or industry. Unlike them.

So King Tyranno says that SJWs are threatening and blackmailing people out of the hobby.

Then I speak out against threatening and blackmailing.

Then you come down on me that threats and blackmail aren't happening or are lies.

I'm not making claims about anyone getting threats other than myself (and my family) many years ago. I don't know the extent of the problem today within gaming. But if it is happening to whatever extent, then I'm opposed and I'd want to work against it.

Oh?  So you were talking against the usual SJW tactics? Well if that's the case then I would aplaud you for finally doing so.

If you don't know the extent of the problem you must have been under a rock until a few minutes ago. You missed all the threads in this forum about exactly that happenning to different people all over.

But you'll excuseme for not knowing you were speaking against the SJW tactics and not painting all gamers with a wide brush, especially since you only said GAMERS, and didn't specify further.

Quote from: Ruprecht on September 20, 2021, 10:18:06 PM
In a sane world we'd have people of color making amazing non-europeans settings and inviting everyone to enjoy them and they'd make a lot of money doing so. We don't seem to be in that world.

What if - as a group average - different peoples have different preferences in how they spend their leisure time? Resulting, in for instance, people in Sub-Saharan Africa having less interest in gaming out a fantasy version of their ancestral past with polyhedrals than people of European descent. Crazy idea isn't it, different people having different cultures?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:46:22 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 29, 2021, 05:41:14 PM
So King Tyranno says that SJWs are threatening and blackmailing people out of the hobby.

Then I speak out against threatening and blackmailing.

Then you come down on me that threats and blackmail aren't happening or are lies.

I'm not making claims about anyone getting threats other than myself (and my family) many years ago. I don't know the extent of the problem today within gaming. But if it is happening to whatever extent, then I'm opposed and I'd want to work against it.

Oh?  So you were talking against the usual SJW tactics? Well if that's the case then I would aplaud you for finally doing so.

If you don't know the extent of the problem you must have been under a rock until a few minutes ago. You missed all the threads in this forum about exactly that happenning to different people all over.

I'm not saying I think these threats and harassment don't happen. I know they do - I've experienced it. I am saying I don't know the extent of it. I posted some about my experiences when I was getting targeted back in 2008 on what was then the "Off Topic" forum.

https://www.therpgsite.com/media-inspiration/anyone-familiar-with-something-awful/

I don't know how common this is now. Regardless of how common it is, though, it fucking sucks. I don't want it to happen to others.

But it is happening to others - and it's far more one-sided than you're either pretending or unwilling to admit.

And several people have explained why "Diversity" and "Inclusion" as practiced by the SJW's is very harmful for our industry (and the culture at large) - no one has explained why it's GOOD.

Dividing people up into boxes based along grievances based on race, disabilities, gender (real or imagined) and ostracizing those that have no particular interest in politics and propaganda surrounding those grievances is not a good business policy.

The degree to which this is done with intention is manifest with how they try to drip this into the game (and in a larger context to other media) rather than just trying create content for people with interest in those issues.

I don't think harassment is one-sided. Plenty of (at least nominally) right-wing trolls ready to harrass JHKim or whoever.

Exclusion is one-sided, because exclusion requires institutional power.

Quote from: tenbones on September 30, 2021, 10:26:17 AM
But it is happening to others - and it's far more one-sided than you're either pretending or unwilling to admit.

And several people have explained why "Diversity" and "Inclusion" as practiced by the SJW's is very harmful for our industry (and the culture at large) - no one has explained why it's GOOD.

Dividing people up into boxes based along grievances based on race, disabilities, gender (real or imagined) and ostracizing those that have no particular interest in politics and propaganda surrounding those grievances is not a good business policy.

The degree to which this is done with intention is manifest with how they try to drip this into the game (and in a larger context to other media) rather than just trying create content for people with interest in those issues.

This here, I've got more in common with a Philipino living God knows where than with a Mexican in my same city that would mock me for playing D&D.

If you're white, talking about "diversity & inclusion" is a bit like back in the day, putting on that white powdered wig. You're showing that you're better than the common "uneducated" rabble.

Quote from: jhkim on September 30, 2021, 02:02:59 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:46:22 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 29, 2021, 05:41:14 PM
So King Tyranno says that SJWs are threatening and blackmailing people out of the hobby.

Then I speak out against threatening and blackmailing.

Then you come down on me that threats and blackmail aren't happening or are lies.

I'm not making claims about anyone getting threats other than myself (and my family) many years ago. I don't know the extent of the problem today within gaming. But if it is happening to whatever extent, then I'm opposed and I'd want to work against it.

Oh?  So you were talking against the usual SJW tactics? Well if that's the case then I would aplaud you for finally doing so.

If you don't know the extent of the problem you must have been under a rock until a few minutes ago. You missed all the threads in this forum about exactly that happenning to different people all over.

I'm not saying I think these threats and harassment don't happen. I know they do - I've experienced it. I am saying I don't know the extent of it. I posted some about my experiences when I was getting targeted back in 2008 on what was then the "Off Topic" forum.

https://www.therpgsite.com/media-inspiration/anyone-familiar-with-something-awful/

I don't know how common this is now. Regardless of how common it is, though, it fucking sucks. I don't want it to happen to others.

God, I only knew about SA because of a feminist there that used to harrass people, can't remember the name but she was one of the Literally Whos that inserted herself in GamerGate to score oppresion points. Sorry that happened to you, harrassment is awful.

I agree it fucking sucks, it shouldn't happen but it does and sadly there's not much hope (if any) that it will ever not happen at all.

I'm guessing you're not into social media (you don't know how lucky you are) or if you are your very left leaning opinions have (so far) shielded you from the onslaught of the SJWs. They are such good persons that would try to deny my being Maya to be able to dismiss me, white well to do gringos pretending to speak for me.

The same types you see on videos yelling racial slurs to a black police officer.

I'm sure there are assholes on the right (I mean vile assholes not like myself a good natured asshole ), but they have zero power and are banned everywhere at the smallest sugestion they might have spoken against the cult's dogma.

  About the words harassment and threats... I think I define these differently than is being used here.  If someone shows up to where you work, in person and starts making a stink, or runs into you in the store, etc that to me is harassment.  If someone says they are going to do you harm, and then shows up at your house... that is a threat.  When I was a kid, getting a threatening phone call to my father's house...it was called Tuesday, not a threat.  Now when the guys, came to kill him, and attempted to ambush him in the front yard by opening all the doors on my mother's car and turning her lights on...that was a threat.  A true threat condition then, my brother and I could not live at home for a month.

  The words threaten and harass get over used a bit.  Talking shit online, to me is just words.  I guess online campaigns to get you fired that have some traction, then we can talk harassment.  I just think those words are way, way over used today.   Every person who gets a message online where someone says they hope they die is a death threat.  No, that is some spurg spouting off online.

The glaring silence of people that believe "Diversity" and "Inclusion" is good for the industry - when at least two people of color are vociferously asking "how?" is growing.

This is the issue with these silly terms without real context. Because the idea is "We are going to diversify and include things in your game for you. And if you don't like it, and we hear about it - we will ostracize you." is how it's done in practice.

I can clearly see a middle ground here. SJW's don't. I'm sure a lot of non-SJW's don't (and there are very good reasons why.) But the companies putting the vast majority of this ideology into the most popular game-lines are only tokenizing what they claim is "Diversity" and "Representation". There are exceptions to this, of course, but those games are either defunct or so new, they're yet to go defunct.

Let's be honest - we're talking about WotC being the primary culprit of this tokenization. Maybe this new edition will be where they put their money where their mouths are. Good. I have zero invested in D&D today *because* of WotC doesn't want me as a consumer. I'm cool with that. But at the same time when I hear about organizations like conventions, and online campaigns to harass non-woke people, the *vast* majority of these instances come from the same fucked up people with the same ideology fueling their grievances. We're talking about actual harassment, not just talking shit online.

As a Jungle Asian guy (as opposed to the Fancy Asian variety) - I can't begin to tell you how hilarious and awful these people sound to me, when they're "allegedly" trying to speak for people like me (they are not - they're using people like me against people that look like themselves). When in reality, they've created their own gameshow out of self-victimization and imported it into our collective hobby which originally was about heroic gaming.

Yes having flaws and overcoming them can be heroic. But that's not what "Diversity" and "Representation" means to these people. For them it means wallowing in your feelings of oppression as a virtue, *extraneous to the hobby*. And everyone should kneel before your oppressed status (whatever variety it comes from). It's not a virtue. It's a mental illness. And I can't even give those people a hot-link of my hardiest shit on how little I care to prostrate myself before their issues. That's THEIR problem, not mine. I start caring when it interferes with my ability to engage with other like-minded people in the hobby.

I hold the same contempt for any political ideology masquerading in my games I consume if the game is not expressly designed to play with those ideas as a conceit. Right now it's mostly the people in the orbit of D&D doing this shit of pushing their political ideology into the game, so I take them at their word on how they feel about those that don't agree with them. Just like I take those on the Red List at their word: they do not want me, or those whose ideas don't agree with theirs, to play their make-believe games. But they sure as fuck do not represent me based on the slant of my eyes, or the ethnic heritage in my DNA, and they sure as fuck don't represent my culture which is as about as Western European as it comes - by my CHOICE. Not by their limp-dick coercion.

It doesn't have to be like this but they are making it that way.

  I should clarify, the words are over used on all sides of the discussions about harassment and threats.   I would say I see a good deal more (these days) real harassment coming from the SJW sorts, but I am not sure how many of those people are SJW's or just attention whores starting cancel campaigns when someone says something they do not like online.

Well said Tenbones, and BTW I like to say that my wife is a "Jungle Asian" too 😄

Quote from: tenbones on September 30, 2021, 02:48:38 PM
by my CHOICE. Not by their limp-dick coercion.

If the problem is coercion then one solution is take away the power away to have an effect. Hence why I am strong advocate of open content. Let's face it, if pinnacle goes south either socially, financially, or another reason that prevent Savage World from being supported or actively published then you and the Savage World are fucked with not recourse other than "wink wink" "nudge nudge" style of sharing.

With D&D 5e is that not case. if D&D 5.5 turns out not to be any particular group cup of tea. There still the SRD as open content.

And yes it is not simplistic, some people like stuff like the Feywild, Beholder, and Mind Flayers and other non-open content as part of the support they get.

It sucks that I am not going to touch the Wilderlands again while the Bledsaws own the IP. But by doing the Majestic Fantasy Realms, I don't have to worry about what they are doing and still share a lot of what I did using the ideas that I grew up with Judges Guild. And I will ensure that other don't have to rely on me by making most of what I do open content.

If it not the SJWs it the Christians, if not the Christians, it is the concerned mothers (BADD), and so on. It will never end as long there is a single point of control, the IP holder, then we will have this problem over and over again until a hundred years from now it becomes public domain.

We can fix it ourselves right now by making open content and sharing it. That way everybody's cudgel gets taken away. It won't be an utopia but it would be far more fair. And combined with digital technology it will enable folks coming from left-field or a place or culture that never had a tradition of roleplaying to start out without seeking rent or permission from entrenched interests.