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Author Topic: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby  (Read 27441 times)

jhkim

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2021, 08:05:30 PM »
I'm not saying don't make content that highlights other cultures - I'm saying keep it in context. An adventure that takes you sailing across the sea to land in the foreboding jungles of Fantasy Congo can be great fun. I don't know anyone at any of my tables that demanded a full blown campaign in a fantasy Africa - even when half my players were black. Hell even then, when they'd play humans IF they'd play black characters at all, they would make their PC's come from lands where black people exist and came up with a backstory why they're in Eurocentric land - because that's where they preferred to play. And most of the time they played white characters or non-humans. They didn't give a shit, and neither did I.

It's only been a small fraction of my gaming overall, but I've had a lot of fun playing games fully set in non-European-based settings. I had an old campaign set in a fantasy version of 1860s Korea called "Dragons of the Yellow Sea" - which is because I was a fan of the book series it's based on as well as a lot of Korean movies and novels. I've also had a fun series of games using Amber Diceless set in a fantasy take on China that I'll be continuing this November.

Recently I've run one-shots in my son's fantasy Incan setting, Land of New Horizons. I've also had one-shots in Tekumel, and am planning an Arrows of Indra game for DunDraCon in February - inspired in part by a fun Vedic campaign I played in college.

There have only been a few successful non-European RPG settings like Tekumel and Rokugan, but so what? There's a lot of settings and genres that are only minority taste - like straight historical settings, or modern-day warfare or action, or hard science fiction. It's still worth having games for these.

If you and your group want to only play in European settings, fine. But there are at least some gamers who enjoy non-European settings. If we all only played what was most popular, we'd all be just played D&D 5E in Faerun.

CD

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2021, 08:38:38 PM »
Given the audience on this thread, this maybe fine to post here.

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Thorn Drumheller

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2021, 10:18:15 PM »
  Anyhow, 70's bad societal habits aside, I see your point.   I just do not bother trying to fix the 70's in any table top RPGs.

I don't try to fix the 1970s with my gaming, nor do I try to fix 2021 with my gaming. I game to have fun.

A lot of people both here and in other forums speak as if politics is important in games. I think politics is important, but I don't think gaming is a fruitful venue to sway anyone. Thus, I'll engage in political discussion where it comes up (such as here), but my games are whatever I find fun and interesting. Psychologically, I'm sure that's related to my politics and worldview or whatever, but that's not why I do it.

Gawds I love this site. The ability to discuss stuff like this without "the board culture" is awesome.

And I agree with you jhkim. I just game to have fun.
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oggsmash

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2021, 11:13:42 PM »
I don't try to fix the 1970s with my gaming, nor do I try to fix 2021 with my gaming. I game to have fun.

A lot of people both here and in other forums speak as if politics is important in games. I think politics is important, but I don't think gaming is a fruitful venue to sway anyone. Thus, I'll engage in political discussion where it comes up (such as here), but my games are whatever I find fun and interesting. Psychologically, I'm sure that's related to my politics and worldview or whatever, but that's not why I do it.

  Gaming or any social activity where someone has fun is probably the BEST way to sway someone on some things they may think.   I just think the way a person goes about it matters a whole lot though, I also do not think it is really anyone's conscious goal during a game session.  At least I hope not.

I think we're saying mostly the same thing here. It seems to me that you're saying that it's the social connection that helps sway people - not the elements of the game itself. And I'd add that the contents of RPG books isn't a significant factor either.

  I agree for one reason regarding the books, players dont read them all that much from my experience.  The people who do read them, are GMs and the first things GMs tend to do is start tinkering with a game/setting anyway.  We are certainly agreeing, I think we also agree people making the books can leave the preaching to do with their pals, and not in print.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 11:17:33 PM by oggsmash »

S'mon

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #64 on: September 24, 2021, 01:35:28 AM »
  I wasnt talking about their proclivities, I was talking about their loud proclamations and judgements.

I think traditional WASP culture is much more tolerant of such things than white-ethnic cultures, never mind everyone else.

SHARK

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2021, 02:13:44 AM »
James Lindsay is the real deal.

Or in gaming parlance, he is Green

Lindsay is dark booger green.

He's doing great work.

Having read this thread, and having been in this hobby long enough to predate the normal use of traditional dice, I have never been represented in *any* RPG to date. There have been some close calls, but never once have I felt some compelling need to be "represented" in D&D (or any other game).

And it's not because I hate my ethnic culture - I rather love it. But representation of it contextually would be a bunch of grass-skirt wearing, bone-in-the-nose spear-throwing cannibals. Because that's what my culture in a "medieval" context would look like. That's what we were prior to colonial takeover. I have no problem with that at all. Sure we could 'fancy' it up - but what for? My culture didn't create great works of literature, it didn't create great religions of deep spiritual significance that affected others and intermixed with secular philosophy to produce a meta-culture anywhere. It didn't invent anything of great significance - though it did innovate internally on some minor things that might be of interest in a D&D campaign.

The fact is my medieval culture would look not too dissimilar to how Orc savages are portrayed in my very campaigns. My people are jungle gangbangers taking the heads of their rivals and eating them for their power. Hell come to think of it I don't even portray my Orcs that bad.

Do I want to have Filipino looking Knights in Norman Castles going on stag hunts and jousting in tourneys and pretending that's "representation"? FUUUUUUUUUCK no.

But you know I can have the PC's that come from that kind of setting go sailing and up in magical version of my people and do some adventuring, maybe get a sweet magical Igorot  axe, and put them through the funny cultural hoops of dealing with my people on their terms (or killing them all - as the circumstances permit). Do I think it would be a fun thing to create a campaign or published setting around it?

NO.

For the same reason Nyambe, Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim, Maztica were not big sellers and ultimately discontinued. I'm grateful they exist, and will always be glad that material is there to be repurposed, but the fact is the vast majority of people that play D&D aren't interested in campaigning long-term in those places, and from what I can gather aren't happy adventuring in alien cultures to them. That's a simple fact. It's not racism. It's not anything. It's simply that people want to have fun with things that are familiar to them.

All the assholes that are SJW's screaming about representation aren't buying this stuff either. Otherwise we'd have tons of it in print. They say it because it makes them look virtuous.

I'm not saying don't make content that highlights other cultures - I'm saying keep it in context. An adventure that takes you sailing across the sea to land in the foreboding jungles of Fantasy Congo can be great fun. I don't know anyone at any of my tables that demanded a full blown campaign in a fantasy Africa - even when half my players were black. Hell even then, when they'd play humans IF they'd play black characters at all, they would make their PC's come from lands where black people exist and came up with a backstory why they're in Eurocentric land - because that's where they preferred to play. And most of the time they played white characters or non-humans. They didn't give a shit, and neither did I.

It really feels like white leftys and their so-called allies give a shit about this stuff more than actual non-whites of which I'm one. Isn't it funny they roll out the white-savior trope on *everything* and commit their own heresy in their virtue signalling? I feel so protected.

Nah I just say get the fuck out of my way and stop telling me how to game. Retarded pleb.

Greetings!

PREACH ON, TENBONES! ;D

Geesus, I think it would be great fun to have a campaign or a mini-campaign exploring some tropical islands filled with bone-through-the-nose wearing cannibals, armed with them wicked weapons and feasting on yummy Filipino-style pork!

Fucking awesome stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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tenbones

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #66 on: September 24, 2021, 12:08:35 PM »
Well you know what really annoys me about "Representation" - is the insane levels of blindness to the very culture one inhabits PRESENTLY and what it has wrought with ZERO understanding of how it got be that way. (outside of the narrative they're too stupid to question).

Instead of seeing the miraculous reality of Western Culture that *despite* it's more idiotic moments (one of which is RIGHT now) it managed to synthesize various thought constructs that would never have appeared anywhere else and in the space of a couple of centuries brought us to the moon and beyond.

But rather than be grateful for the heritage of their own culture, they want to pretend it's this horrible thing to be downplayed. It's a colossal level of ignorant stupidity that they do not understand how the rest of the world operates now, or in history. What makes it even more gross is this incessant need to conflate clearly inferior methods and beliefs to being equal to optimal ones.

This is pathological post-modernism. The complete lack of discernment and standards coupled with this infantile need to be coddled for everything. This is what is dominating our culture - and ironically it's because of the relative success and decadence of the West, we got lazy and let the kids have the wheel of the culture and now we're in the fucking ditch.

The Hobby is a cottage industry that can be a double-edge sword. Yes it can be rocked by morons that ascribe to this ideology - I'm less concerned with the players in the hobby. I'm more concerned with the people in the hobby that are actively funding the corporate entities that promote this dogshit and know better. It cuts both ways - stop funding the cottage industry parasites and you'll see the problem go away.

The D&D brand is the Fentanyl of the Hobby.

“Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword” - Buckminster Fuller

You want representation? Make a good game and represent your ass off. Don't shit on other people because they don't care about your issues. If it's good - maybe they'll come. That's your problem on selling your product, not theirs for not giving a shit. Nobody owes anyone anything.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2021, 12:11:18 PM by tenbones »

dkabq

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2021, 07:16:42 AM »
I'm in agreement about the principle here - but I guess I'm older. I grew up being told that homosexuals and other diversity are offensive - they were banned or censored from publication. My games frequently have these things. I'm not going to bend with the wind and take them out of my games based on the political climate. I run my games to have fun the way I like.

  Other diversity sounds weird.  You mean what by that?  People told you people being homosexuals was offensive, for existing?   I also find it strange someone was telling you this in NYC, but then again those WASPs used to have quite the foothold there.   Or do you mean middle school kids called one another f#gs?

I was born in 1970 and grew up very slightly upstate in New York in Rockland County (about a half hour north of NYC). And yeah, at the time, homosexuals were offensive for existing. Teachers would be summarily fired if they came out as gay, and kids would likely not just be called f*gs, but beaten up by their peers. Other diversity also wasn't welcome. On my elementary school yard, the recurring chant was "A fight! A fight! A n***ger and a white!" -- and I overheard friends' parents talking concernedly about how even the private swimming pools might start letting black people in.

Can confirm. And that lack of welcome for diversity certainly extended to the "nerds", "spazs", and "geeks" (i.e., those that made up the vast majority of RPG and boardgame players back in the day).

Comparing that time to now, in terms of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc., is like night and day.

tenbones

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2021, 11:47:56 AM »

It's only been a small fraction of my gaming overall, but I've had a lot of fun playing games fully set in non-European-based settings. I had an old campaign set in a fantasy version of 1860s Korea called "Dragons of the Yellow Sea" - which is because I was a fan of the book series it's based on as well as a lot of Korean movies and novels. I've also had a fun series of games using Amber Diceless set in a fantasy take on China that I'll be continuing this November.

Recently I've run one-shots in my son's fantasy Incan setting, Land of New Horizons. I've also had one-shots in Tekumel, and am planning an Arrows of Indra game for DunDraCon in February - inspired in part by a fun Vedic campaign I played in college.

There have only been a few successful non-European RPG settings like Tekumel and Rokugan, but so what? There's a lot of settings and genres that are only minority taste - like straight historical settings, or modern-day warfare or action, or hard science fiction. It's still worth having games for these.

If you and your group want to only play in European settings, fine. But there are at least some gamers who enjoy non-European settings. If we all only played what was most popular, we'd all be just played D&D 5E in Faerun.

You know I wrote and advocate for the Talislanta (to the point where I'm actively trying to not talk about it these days)? You'd think I know that having non-Eurocentric settings deserve to exist right? Which is a weird thing for you to say, at least to me - if it was direct at me. I'm the last person to say this to.

But put some perspective on this: Tekumel (which I dearly dearly love) and Talislanta are not examples of "massively successful" RPG's. They have their fans, sure. But so does Al-Qadim. So does Kara-Tur. So Does Mazitica (okay... no one is really a fan of Maztica). They're not *successful* games. They're notable for their existence and in the case of Talislanta in particular, their persistent existence on the periphery of almost staying in publication.

I have an actual stake in that game - but I'm not willing to blow smoke up my own ass to prove a point that's inherently false: Weird settings that are not Eurocentric in flavor and tone are not remotely as popular as mainstream Eurocentric RPG's here in America. That's all I'm really saying. And I'm not sure why that's even seen as controversial. It doesn't mean I don't adore those other settings, I was pretty clear that I do in that very post you quoted. I own all of that material, I use it liberally. But my players love to go there and have extended stays and adventures, but always like to come back home to their Eurocentric (Forgotten Realms) home base. The notable exception to this is if we're playing Spelljammer.

The facts remain - these settings do not sell well enough to maintain their existence. They exist now and largely forever in the minds and hearts of we GM's that decide to make use of them.

Nothing you say about what you believe happens at my table or even yours is going to change that. For the same reason I would expect to go to China and find RPG players playing Chinese themed games over Meso-American themed ones.

And let's be honest - diversity of representation is not what we're really talking about here is it? We can have the discussion of why Al-Qadim should exist - and it most certainly should (I know this because I designed stuff for it for WotC and Paizo), but that's not *really* what is being called for by the modern SJW's that scree! about Inclusivity and Diversity.

They want "representation without context". Hence the Combat Wheelchairs, the Homoerotic elements free of setting context, but very modern context among a specific subset of American West Coast culture, random "people of color" in European settings free of context, overt downplaying of gendered appearances free of context.

The point seems to be to unmoor western fantasy tropes from their western mythical and cultural traditions at the expense of making good games with settings people are attracted to. WotC seems to be saying "Well since we all know that if we make an actual setting to represent cultures that are non-European, we'll just push those elements into our traditionally Eurocentric game and demonize anyone that protests."


jhkim

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2021, 12:36:56 PM »
There have only been a few successful non-European RPG settings like Tekumel and Rokugan, but so what? There's a lot of settings and genres that are only minority taste - like straight historical settings, or modern-day warfare or action, or hard science fiction. It's still worth having games for these.

The facts remain - these settings do not sell well enough to maintain their existence. They exist now and largely forever in the minds and hearts of we GM's that decide to make use of them.

Nothing you say about what you believe happens at my table or even yours is going to change that. For the same reason I would expect to go to China and find RPG players playing Chinese themed games over Meso-American themed ones.

And let's be honest - diversity of representation is not what we're really talking about here is it? We can have the discussion of why Al-Qadim should exist - and it most certainly should (I know this because I designed stuff for it for WotC and Paizo), but that's not *really* what is being called for by the modern SJW's that scree! about Inclusivity and Diversity.

(Side note: tenbones, I think you misread "Rokugan" for "Talislanta" in my post. I never mentioned Talislanta, and you never mention Rokugan.)

I was speaking for myself, and reacting to what you said about non-European settings. If you want to discuss what modern-day SJWs want, I'd want something more specific to talk about. I ran into this recently when discussing with Pundit, and I even bought a copy of Candlekeep Mysteries at Pacificon earlier this month to get an idea about what the controversy was. In the previous thread, he said,
The wheelchair is in Candlekeep, and EVERY dungeon for official D&D from Candlekeep onwards has been wheelchair-accessible. Also, every D&D product from candlekeep onward has featured the wheelchair in art.

However, when I bought Candlekeep Mysteries, I found no wheelchairs of any sort in it, and the dungeons were not wheelchair-accessible. This makes me skeptical of claims. I'm happy to discuss specific authors or products, but discussing what an abstract group of unnamed people thinks isn't helpful in my opinion.

GeekyBugle

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2021, 01:14:09 PM »
For the same reason I would expect to go to China and find RPG players playing Chinese themed games over Meso-American themed ones.

Whilst I can't speak for the average Chinese player in China I can tell you that in Latin America Maztica isn't more popular than vanilla D&D.

Now I do have my theories as to why:

Maztica isn't even close to being a mesoamerican setting, it's faerun with a very thin coat of paint.

There's a Spanish made game about Aztecs and Conquistadores, but I have no idea how popular that one is in Spain, here in México not really.

That one does it's own thing and it's not based on D&D at all. But from my reading it's made to play the conquista which IMHO puts unnecesary limitations on it.

Add to it the advantage of being the first and the best selling game in town.

Then add to it the universality of LotR.

Then add to it the hunger for the exotic.

And you end up with most mexicans playing D&D instead of something else.

IF WotC wanted to make a full game on a different setting they would need to either build it from zero or tailor the engine to fit the setting. And make a compelling setting built upon some readilly available tropes adecuate to it and that most people can grook fast.

Which means tailoring the magic system/spells among other things. The Aztec game I was talking about did this, but it's only in spanish which might account most of you never even hearing about it.

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tenbones

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #71 on: September 27, 2021, 04:37:55 PM »

(Side note: tenbones, I think you misread "Rokugan" for "Talislanta" in my post. I never mentioned Talislanta, and you never mention Rokugan.)

Nope you read me correctly. I just meant to say they're all in the same boat. Though Rokugan definitely had it's moment to shine - it faded into it's niche corner of acknowledged kickass non-Eurocentric settings that are no longer supported by anyone but us GM's that run that material.

I was speaking for myself, and reacting to what you said about non-European settings. If you want to discuss what modern-day SJWs want, I'd want something more specific to talk about. I ran into this recently when discussing with Pundit, and I even bought a copy of Candlekeep Mysteries at Pacificon earlier this month to get an idea about what the controversy was. In the previous thread, he said,
The wheelchair is in Candlekeep, and EVERY dungeon for official D&D from Candlekeep onwards has been wheelchair-accessible. Also, every D&D product from candlekeep onward has featured the wheelchair in art.

However, when I bought Candlekeep Mysteries, I found no wheelchairs of any sort in it, and the dungeons were not wheelchair-accessible. This makes me skeptical of claims. I'm happy to discuss specific authors or products, but discussing what an abstract group of unnamed people thinks isn't helpful in my opinion.

Yep. I hear you on that too. I don't profess to know if it's in the official books. I will not purchase any WotC product. But it's possible that you got an early printing? I dunno.

My question is WHY is this even a topic of discussion in a game about quasi-medieval European fantasy? So you go first: what do you think SJW's want in D&D and tell me at whose expense?

Because there most certainly IS an expense. I'm one of them. Just like I don't need Banjo-Representation in my favorite metal-bands, I don't need Fruit-Loop representation on my plate of steak, asparagus and potato, or on my sushi plate. The argument is always "what harm is it?" No one is saying not to make LGBT, Black supremacy, Asian supremacy games if that's what you want. But the established premise of D&D has never been those things.

This preponderance of sneaking those things in there free of context seems 1) either disingenuous to the purpose of creating them (i.e. token virtue-signaling to the alleged aggrieved 2) half-ass attempts at actual genuine design.

To WotC I say - shit or get off the pot. Create a Blue Rose on Roids setting and go wild. Don't sneak in ingredients to established settings that have no well crafted contextual reality to be there.

The reality is people want to play what they're comfortable with. The unspoken reality is that WotC wants everyone to believe that the types of western fantasy that we've been consuming for more than a century in terms of fiction is the product of white racists and they want to condition everyone to get used to their weird non-contextual political daydream dressed in fantasy. This is also true of other forms of consumer entertainment.

Deep down they detest (or at minimum look down on) the very people they say they're giving representation to. Otherwise white privilege would not exist and WotC would be run by LGBT "People of Color". Otherwise why would we poor "people of color" need white leftists who control the wheel at WotC to give us representation they say we need?

I'd love to see Jeremy Crawford give his job to me, an oppressed Asian man under his white-colonial yoke. My very genes scream with the horrors of slavery placed upon my ancestors by the Spaniards he resembles in some myopic fashion. Why is Jeremy continuing this oppression? Why won't he step down? I would usher in the most glorious era of D&D since St. Gygax lightbulb blew out in his outhouse on the cold winter's evening in Lake Geneva and he fell into the hole where his neighbor Timmy's pet iguana, Butch, used to hide out in. (the secret origin of Dungeon's and Dragons!)


tenbones

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #72 on: September 27, 2021, 04:53:24 PM »
I should add if I'm being kind - I recognize there is this desire to create new experiences in RPG's.

In D&D it would be setting specific. The problem is the people that cling to this ideology we see creeping into every aspect of pop-culture are intensely ignorant of reality in every meaningful sense. So they don't know or care about history, they care about other things important to them, shallow as they are, and those are the things they curating into established media without actually selling anyone that has no interest in those things on them.

This is not representation, or diversity. Diversity would be honoring the established status-quo while curating a good design to introduce elements in some plausible manner. The fact you can't disagree with them without being labeled a monster is probably indicative of that.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #73 on: September 27, 2021, 05:13:23 PM »
Diversity is a nuetral trait-not a virtue. Its like discussing the virtue of bananas in D&D. I have stated this before.

SHARK

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Re: The Importance Of Diversity And Representation In The Hobby
« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2021, 05:13:56 PM »

(Side note: tenbones, I think you misread "Rokugan" for "Talislanta" in my post. I never mentioned Talislanta, and you never mention Rokugan.)

Nope you read me correctly. I just meant to say they're all in the same boat. Though Rokugan definitely had it's moment to shine - it faded into it's niche corner of acknowledged kickass non-Eurocentric settings that are no longer supported by anyone but us GM's that run that material.

I was speaking for myself, and reacting to what you said about non-European settings. If you want to discuss what modern-day SJWs want, I'd want something more specific to talk about. I ran into this recently when discussing with Pundit, and I even bought a copy of Candlekeep Mysteries at Pacificon earlier this month to get an idea about what the controversy was. In the previous thread, he said,
The wheelchair is in Candlekeep, and EVERY dungeon for official D&D from Candlekeep onwards has been wheelchair-accessible. Also, every D&D product from candlekeep onward has featured the wheelchair in art.

However, when I bought Candlekeep Mysteries, I found no wheelchairs of any sort in it, and the dungeons were not wheelchair-accessible. This makes me skeptical of claims. I'm happy to discuss specific authors or products, but discussing what an abstract group of unnamed people thinks isn't helpful in my opinion.

Yep. I hear you on that too. I don't profess to know if it's in the official books. I will not purchase any WotC product. But it's possible that you got an early printing? I dunno.

My question is WHY is this even a topic of discussion in a game about quasi-medieval European fantasy? So you go first: what do you think SJW's want in D&D and tell me at whose expense?

Because there most certainly IS an expense. I'm one of them. Just like I don't need Banjo-Representation in my favorite metal-bands, I don't need Fruit-Loop representation on my plate of steak, asparagus and potato, or on my sushi plate. The argument is always "what harm is it?" No one is saying not to make LGBT, Black supremacy, Asian supremacy games if that's what you want. But the established premise of D&D has never been those things.

This preponderance of sneaking those things in there free of context seems 1) either disingenuous to the purpose of creating them (i.e. token virtue-signaling to the alleged aggrieved 2) half-ass attempts at actual genuine design.

To WotC I say - shit or get off the pot. Create a Blue Rose on Roids setting and go wild. Don't sneak in ingredients to established settings that have no well crafted contextual reality to be there.

The reality is people want to play what they're comfortable with. The unspoken reality is that WotC wants everyone to believe that the types of western fantasy that we've been consuming for more than a century in terms of fiction is the product of white racists and they want to condition everyone to get used to their weird non-contextual political daydream dressed in fantasy. This is also true of other forms of consumer entertainment.

Deep down they detest (or at minimum look down on) the very people they say they're giving representation to. Otherwise white privilege would not exist and WotC would be run by LGBT "People of Color". Otherwise why would we poor "people of color" need white leftists who control the wheel at WotC to give us representation they say we need?

I'd love to see Jeremy Crawford give his job to me, an oppressed Asian man under his white-colonial yoke. My very genes scream with the horrors of slavery placed upon my ancestors by the Spaniards he resembles in some myopic fashion. Why is Jeremy continuing this oppression? Why won't he step down? I would usher in the most glorious era of D&D since St. Gygax lightbulb blew out in his outhouse on the cold winter's evening in Lake Geneva and he fell into the hole where his neighbor Timmy's pet iguana, Butch, used to hide out in. (the secret origin of Dungeon's and Dragons!)

Greetings!

*Laughing* Fucking hilarious, brother!

You know, everything you said is spot-on. I have always loved TALISLANTA!

But sadly, as a game world and commercial product, it has been consistently rejected, and has been a commercial failure. Yes, there is a vocal minority of gamers that wax poetic about wanting and enjoying non-European centric game worlds. In general, I myself appreciate such cultural, artistic, and historical variety. East Asia, Central Asia, South-East Asia, India, Africa, the Middle East, Central America, and South America--each has enormous hstory and dozens of various cultures, mini-traditions, lore, and more that can contribute to an awesome and interesting game campaign. Not to mention, of course, various mythologies, vast animal groups, clothing, weapons, and FOOD! It's all fucking awesome.

Despite that, there is either only a very small gamer minority--or through polls and surveys, most of the gaming public are schizophrenic and just lying--that are genuinely interested in such game worlds.

The vast majority want a quasi-Tolkienized Western Europe. Again, and again, and again. There can never be enough iterations on the traditions, myths, and general scope of such a stylized Western European foundation for a game world. That's the simple, brutal truth. WESTERN EUROPEAN--not South American, not Middle Eastern, not African, and not Asian. WESTERN EUROPEAN.

Talislanta is even more off the charts by dialing the races and cultures up to 11, with everyone being non-human and rainbow coloured. Talislanta is I'd say the most original, diverse game world ever produced. Certainly in the Top 5 of such original game words produced. And yet, it has always been obscure, and remains obscure. I wish the market was different, for Talislanta, and other cultural/Historical game worlds, as mentioned previously, but it isn't, and such market realities and preferences aren't likely to ever change.

Even gamers in Asia and Mexico want WESTERN EUROPEAN based worlds--not stuff created from their own native lands and culture. So, we get what we get. I have simply resolved that different cultural and historically-based settings have to be developed, introduced, and used by myself, as well as other individual DM's. Such material is a niche within a niche, right? ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 05:16:58 PM by SHARK »
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b