Anyhow, 70's bad societal habits aside, I see your point.   I just do not bother trying to fix the 70's in any table top RPGs.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 22, 2021, 08:19:18 PM
  Anyhow, 70's bad societal habits aside, I see your point.   I just do not bother trying to fix the 70's in any table top RPGs.

I don't try to fix the 1970s with my gaming, nor do I try to fix 2021 with my gaming. I game to have fun.

A lot of people both here and in other forums speak as if politics is important in games. I think politics is important, but I don't think gaming is a fruitful venue to sway anyone. Thus, I'll engage in political discussion where it comes up (such as here), but my games are whatever I find fun and interesting. Psychologically, I'm sure that's related to my politics and worldview or whatever, but that's not why I do it.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 22, 2021, 07:09:01 PM
People told you people being homosexuals was offensive, for existing?   I also find it strange someone was telling you this in NYC, but then again those WASPs used to have quite the foothold there. 

I hope that was a joke! WASPs have always had a thing for the Glories of Classical Greece 

Quote from: jhkim on September 22, 2021, 07:30:57 PM
I believe you're talking about Thor: Ragnarok, which is a movie I loved. I'm happy to discuss it with you - but since you apparently haven't seen it or even know it's name, that seems tricky. Do you mind spoilers? I thought the ending was a great, and it wasn't at all a deus ex machina - since it was through the protagonists' agency. Having the evil villain caught in their exploding base, or dropped into a volcano, or eaten by their own monster is a very old trope for action movies - and not a signal of radical feminism, in my opinion.

I'd agree. The Captain Marvel movie was definitely infused with radical feminism, with a protagonist who acts more like a traditional villain. Thor Ragnarok not really - I didn't like the film much, but not for that reason.

About the only think I liked about Thor Ragnarok was that Jeff Goldblum sort of reinvented Groucho Marx instead of playing the Grandmaster. I guess some of the Jack Kirby interior design on the ship they stole was fun. But Hela just...shoots infinite knives and...ugh. Really it was a big mess.

Quote from: S'mon on September 23, 2021, 02:13:53 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 22, 2021, 07:09:01 PM
People told you people being homosexuals was offensive, for existing?   I also find it strange someone was telling you this in NYC, but then again those WASPs used to have quite the foothold there. 

I hope that was a joke! WASPs have always had a thing for the Glories of Classical Greece 

  I wasnt talking about their proclivities, I was talking about their loud proclamations and judgements.

Quote from: jhkim on September 22, 2021, 11:54:59 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 22, 2021, 08:19:18 PM
  Anyhow, 70's bad societal habits aside, I see your point.   I just do not bother trying to fix the 70's in any table top RPGs.

I don't try to fix the 1970s with my gaming, nor do I try to fix 2021 with my gaming. I game to have fun.

A lot of people both here and in other forums speak as if politics is important in games. I think politics is important, but I don't think gaming is a fruitful venue to sway anyone. Thus, I'll engage in political discussion where it comes up (such as here), but my games are whatever I find fun and interesting. Psychologically, I'm sure that's related to my politics and worldview or whatever, but that's not why I do it.

  Gaming or any social activity where someone has fun is probably the BEST way to sway someone on some things they may think.   I just think the way a person goes about it matters a whole lot though, I also do not think it is really anyone's conscious goal during a game session.  At least I hope not.   My point from the beginning here though, is that I think the people who preach out about diversity and inclusion being needed and something someone should seek out gaming, likely grew up without it, or were in some middle/upper middle class area and did not have any of same growing up and have a whole bunch of perceptions of how everyone thinks/thought based on a few shits they were around. 

  Just treating people decent and allowing them to have fun during a hobby activity is IMO the easiest, and fastest way to bring them around to your point of view, because if you are a decent person, the other person is likely to see this over time, and will consider a different world view from a different perspective than opposition if it is in a person they like to be around.  I think this is why there is an element that want some political angles pushed into gaming.  I also think those same people pushing that angle have homogenous groups they game with, and probably are not much fun to be around.   

This person is worth your time. I will post two videos here, you can subscribe to him and learn more.

Diversity: A Translation from the Wokish | James Lindsay
https://youtu.be/EsVDWuQYzxs

Inclusion: A Translation from the Wokish | James Lindsay
https://youtu.be/IFREDFSGZxo

Quote from: CondorDM on September 23, 2021, 03:17:58 PM
This person is worth your time. I will post two videos here, you can subscribe to him and learn more.

Diversity: A Translation from the Wokish | James Lindsay
https://youtu.be/EsVDWuQYzxs

Inclusion: A Translation from the Wokish | James Lindsay
https://youtu.be/IFREDFSGZxo

Isn't this the guy who helped submit a whole bunch of garbage papers for peer review, to make the point that the peer review process itself was more broken than a third-party 3E supplement?

Same guy - https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/10/04/paper-that-would-never-have-gotten-past-peer-review-criticizes-academy-film/

Quote from: CondorDM on September 23, 2021, 03:45:37 PM
Same guy - https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/10/04/paper-that-would-never-have-gotten-past-peer-review-criticizes-academy-film/

Meh, WaPo opinion piece sniveling. Still amusing to me.

He is a good guy to follow, he can keep you informed about what this nonsense really means. A lot people feel there is something wrong with how the far left speaks, but they don't know exactly what it all means, this guy brings clarity to the situation.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 23, 2021, 03:34:31 PM

Quote from: CondorDM on September 23, 2021, 03:17:58 PM
This person is worth your time. I will post two videos here, you can subscribe to him and learn more.

Diversity: A Translation from the Wokish | James Lindsay
https://youtu.be/EsVDWuQYzxs

Inclusion: A Translation from the Wokish | James Lindsay
https://youtu.be/IFREDFSGZxo

Isn't this the guy who helped submit a whole bunch of garbage papers for peer review, to make the point that the peer review process itself was more broken than a third-party 3E supplement?

James Lindsay is the real deal.

Or in gaming parlance, he is Green

Quote from: Shasarak on September 23, 2021, 05:34:37 PM
James Lindsay is the real deal.

Or in gaming parlance, he is Green

Lindsay is dark booger green.

He's doing great work.

Having read this thread, and having been in this hobby long enough to predate the normal use of traditional dice, I have never been represented in *any* RPG to date. There have been some close calls, but never once have I felt some compelling need to be "represented" in D&D (or any other game).

And it's not because I hate my ethnic culture - I rather love it. But representation of it contextually would be a bunch of grass-skirt wearing, bone-in-the-nose spear-throwing cannibals. Because that's what my culture in a "medieval" context would look like. That's what we were prior to colonial takeover. I have no problem with that at all. Sure we could 'fancy' it up - but what for? My culture didn't create great works of literature, it didn't create great religions of deep spiritual significance that affected others and intermixed with secular philosophy to produce a meta-culture anywhere. It didn't invent anything of great significance - though it did innovate internally on some minor things that might be of interest in a D&D campaign.

The fact is my medieval culture would look not too dissimilar to how Orc savages are portrayed in my very campaigns. My people are jungle gangbangers taking the heads of their rivals and eating them for their power. Hell come to think of it I don't even portray my Orcs that bad.

Do I want to have Filipino looking Knights in Norman Castles going on stag hunts and jousting in tourneys and pretending that's "representation"? FUUUUUUUUUCK no.

But you know I can have the PC's that come from that kind of setting go sailing and up in magical version of my people and do some adventuring, maybe get a sweet magical Igorot  axe, and put them through the funny cultural hoops of dealing with my people on their terms (or killing them all - as the circumstances permit). Do I think it would be a fun thing to create a campaign or published setting around it?

NO.

For the same reason Nyambe, Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim, Maztica were not big sellers and ultimately discontinued. I'm grateful they exist, and will always be glad that material is there to be repurposed, but the fact is the vast majority of people that play D&D aren't interested in campaigning long-term in those places, and from what I can gather aren't happy adventuring in alien cultures to them. That's a simple fact. It's not racism. It's not anything. It's simply that people want to have fun with things that are familiar to them.

All the assholes that are SJW's screaming about representation aren't buying this stuff either. Otherwise we'd have tons of it in print. They say it because it makes them look virtuous.

I'm not saying don't make content that highlights other cultures - I'm saying keep it in context. An adventure that takes you sailing across the sea to land in the foreboding jungles of Fantasy Congo can be great fun. I don't know anyone at any of my tables that demanded a full blown campaign in a fantasy Africa - even when half my players were black. Hell even then, when they'd play humans IF they'd play black characters at all, they would make their PC's come from lands where black people exist and came up with a backstory why they're in Eurocentric land - because that's where they preferred to play. And most of the time they played white characters or non-humans. They didn't give a shit, and neither did I.

It really feels like white leftys and their so-called allies give a shit about this stuff more than actual non-whites of which I'm one. Isn't it funny they roll out the white-savior trope on *everything* and commit their own heresy in their virtue signalling? I feel so protected.

Nah I just say get the fuck out of my way and stop telling me how to game. Retarded pleb.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 23, 2021, 07:22:36 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 22, 2021, 11:54:59 PM
I don't try to fix the 1970s with my gaming, nor do I try to fix 2021 with my gaming. I game to have fun.

A lot of people both here and in other forums speak as if politics is important in games. I think politics is important, but I don't think gaming is a fruitful venue to sway anyone. Thus, I'll engage in political discussion where it comes up (such as here), but my games are whatever I find fun and interesting. Psychologically, I'm sure that's related to my politics and worldview or whatever, but that's not why I do it.

  Gaming or any social activity where someone has fun is probably the BEST way to sway someone on some things they may think.   I just think the way a person goes about it matters a whole lot though, I also do not think it is really anyone's conscious goal during a game session.  At least I hope not.

I think we're saying mostly the same thing here. It seems to me that you're saying that it's the social connection that helps sway people - not the elements of the game itself. And I'd add that the contents of RPG books isn't a significant factor either.