Quote from: Theory of Games on September 21, 2021, 10:21:20 AM

Yeah, but you aren't playing the game correctly. You dismiss them with factual information, THEN CHANGE THE TOPIC. Don't give them the space to respond with their personal attacks. Example:

I prefer ignoring them and changing the topic, but if you want to argue with them, at least know how.

I wish it were that easy. If you offer up factual information, and that information feels threatening, then in an online forum they will ban you. Or dogpile you with ad hominem attacks. They'll then refer back to their playbook, and find the counterargument before coming back.

Odds are good you'll hear...

...slippery slope fallacy
...misogynist overtones
...dripping with privilege
...etc

In each of these cases the accusation is unprovable, but will be immediately accepted by all the parties attacking you. If they're a majority...it's bad. See TBP, or Twitter. If they're a minority, they will pretend they are the majority until they are.

This is not about logic. It's about power. It's about enforcing an agenda, and changing society to fit certain ideals. These types are impossible to deal with online.

In person it's more possible, but they have to be open to discussion. In your hypothetical most of the ones I've dealt with have no idea what THAC0 is, wouldn't care about it, and would accuse you of privilege for changing the subject. You would then be subjected to a purity test if there is more than one at the table.

If they actually listened to what THAC0 is, then they would hate it instantly, because it is...

*checks playbook*

Dripping with privilege. It literally advantages those with a higher strength. It's ableIST. Clearly you are phobic. Straighten up! Repent, heretic!

I ended up kicking out the one at my table. THAT is the correct action. Don't change the subject. Don't try to talk. When it becomes clear they aren't listening to reason, and have no interest in real discourse, cut them off and move on. Ideologues are not looking to change. They are looking to convert, and see the hobby as a vehicle to do that.

The reason they use it is the same as every other iteration.

To leverage power over others and to leverage control over the rest. If they can co-opt the product as an agenda platform then all the better.

As said many a time. Every iteration they cycle through the same set of targets, usually inventing a new set of buzzwords everyone has to learn.

Usually it starts with "Think of the Children!" thats near always the first foot in the door. Good ol censorship.
Then "Think of the Women!" which is usually when the accusations of sexism and rape get thrown around till it becomes a joke because women invariably claim anything is rape.
Then "Think of the Gays!".
Then "Think of the Minorities!".
Then "Think of our current pet minority!".
And then "Think of the Cripples!"

Before cycling back around for the next wave.

Quote from: Omega on September 22, 2021, 05:25:49 AM
Usually it starts with "Think of the Children!" thats near always the first foot in the door. Good ol censorship.
Then "Think of the Women!" which is usually when the accusations of sexism and rape get thrown around till it becomes a joke because women invariably claim anything is rape.
Then "Think of the Gays!".
Then "Think of the Minorities!".
Then "Think of our current pet minority!".
And then "Think of the Cripples!"

Before cycling back around for the next wave.

This is it... And before you know it, you're playing PG12 scooby do rpg with a 'diverse' array of characters. Fuck that. Best to ignore all that shit and play the games as you've been playing them.

It's never enough.

No matter what you do, no matter how much you compromise, there will ALWAYS be more demands- excuse me, suggestions.

In my game design, I just don't care. Take it or leave it. Just like my art and writing. If someone finds any of it "offensive" (which stories with living hydrogen blimp dragons and cute talking red pandas must be) then too bad. A game with so many non-humanish intelligent characters is still not enough diversity, especially since it's a mostly patriarchal world (shadow elves excepted) and...GASP?!...it's heterosexual.

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 22, 2021, 04:27:00 PM
In my game design, I just don't care. Take it or leave it. Just like my art and writing. If someone finds any of it "offensive" (which stories with living hydrogen blimp dragons and cute talking red pandas must be) then too bad. A game with so many non-humanish intelligent characters is still not enough diversity, especially since it's a mostly patriarchal world (shadow elves excepted) and...GASP?!...it's heterosexual.

I'm in agreement about the principle here - but I guess I'm older. I grew up being told that homosexuals and other diversity are offensive - they were banned or censored from publication. My games frequently have these things. I'm not going to bend with the wind and take them out of my games based on the political climate. I run my games to have fun the way I like.

Quote from: jhkim on September 22, 2021, 05:09:33 PM

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 22, 2021, 04:27:00 PM
In my game design, I just don't care. Take it or leave it. Just like my art and writing. If someone finds any of it "offensive" (which stories with living hydrogen blimp dragons and cute talking red pandas must be) then too bad. A game with so many non-humanish intelligent characters is still not enough diversity, especially since it's a mostly patriarchal world (shadow elves excepted) and...GASP?!...it's heterosexual.

I'm in agreement about the principle here - but I guess I'm older. I grew up being told that homosexuals and other diversity are offensive - they were banned or censored from publication. My games frequently have these things. I'm not going to bend with the wind and take them out of my games based on the political climate. I run my games to have fun the way I like.

The problem is that I simply don't include it because that's not my style, Miss Red Panda is Mr. Red Panda's fiance and in Elsben he (gasp!) heroically protects her from an Elsbenian knight several times his size. But leftists will DEMAND all of the "inclusiveness" even in a game where sex does not play a role. If someone wants to have a game with homosexual characters then either I won't play or- if it's not about virtue signalling- simply not care. But in our "silence is violence" society then my game, art, and writing not including these things makes me guilty of various "isms."


By the way, has anyone noticed how radical feminism fouls up hero's journeys? If a male hero is up against a female villain he is not allowed to pummel her into defeat so in such cases a third party- apparently in a "Thor" movie it was some sort of titanic lava monster- must finish the job. This is "deus ex machina" and is not very satisfying, heck even a later Dungeon Master's guide said it was bad gaming- it's not much better in a superhero movie.

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 22, 2021, 05:21:08 PM
By the way, has anyone noticed how radical feminism fouls up hero's journeys? If a male hero is up against a female villain he is not allowed to pummel her into defeat so in such cases a third party- apparently in a "Thor" movie it was some sort of titanic lava monster- must finish the job. This is "deus ex machina" and is not very satisfying, heck even a later Dungeon Master's guide said it was bad gaming- it's not much better in a superhero movie.

In fact I was musing on the same thing the other day, noticing that female film villains almost invariably require a female sidekick to do the dirty work, if the protagonist herself isn't a woman. It hasn't arisen in my games because most of the groups I've played with included one or more ass-kicking female PCs anyway.

Quote from: jhkim on September 22, 2021, 05:09:33 PM

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 22, 2021, 04:27:00 PM
In my game design, I just don't care.

I'm in agreement about the principle here - but I guess I'm older.

You're older than Griswald? How old were you when you started gaming?

Quote from: Theory of Games on September 21, 2021, 09:37:38 AM
There's an undead species called WIGHTS, who are white-skinned, but old-school D&D is racist?

GREAT, now I have to clean all the coffee off my monitor.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on September 21, 2021, 10:20:02 PM
Meritocracy is foreign to White Leftists.

Well, it IS a system that discriminates heavily against them. Socialism is the fastest route for the unsuccessful to get ahead because it doesn't require actual results.

In terms of games; they want whole segments of the successful (ex. those regardless of their ethnicity who have actually studied a given place and it's history and culture) to be excluded from competition in certain areas because they think it will give them a better shot at success... when the actual result is crappy products no one will buy except out of pity/virtue signaling and entire sub-genres laying fallow lest someone who knows what they're talking is willing to risk the slings and arrows of those claiming victim status).

Which is why everything always turns to crap in LeftieLand... it punishes the exceptional and promotes the mediocre in all things while considering the lowest common denominator the height of virtue.

Quote from: jhkim on September 22, 2021, 05:09:33 PM

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 22, 2021, 04:27:00 PM
In my game design, I just don't care. Take it or leave it. Just like my art and writing. If someone finds any of it "offensive" (which stories with living hydrogen blimp dragons and cute talking red pandas must be) then too bad. A game with so many non-humanish intelligent characters is still not enough diversity, especially since it's a mostly patriarchal world (shadow elves excepted) and...GASP?!...it's heterosexual.

I'm in agreement about the principle here - but I guess I'm older. I grew up being told that homosexuals and other diversity are offensive - they were banned or censored from publication. My games frequently have these things. I'm not going to bend with the wind and take them out of my games based on the political climate. I run my games to have fun the way I like.

  Other diversity sounds weird.  You mean what by that?  People told you people being homosexuals was offensive, for existing?   I also find it strange someone was telling you this in NYC, but then again those WASPs used to have quite the foothold there.   Or do you mean middle school kids called one another f#gs?

  I should also explain that, and say for certain I have heard offensive things leveled at gay people.  I guess that recap was confusing for me.  I do not put any sort of modern flavor diversity into any games though for injustice done in the real world.  I think the best thing about a table top rpg, is you can put anything you want in it, from range of character personalities for the NPCs, themes, cultural references, anything you want.  I think there is nothing wrong with including whatever you want into a game you are running.  I also think focusing on how the game world reacts to the players and what they enjoy or find fun is most important, I do not think I would be playing with people who must have some modern version of what is called diversity or inclusion today in their games.  That is not because I wouldnt play with them, it is simply because at my age, the group of people I am going to play with is fairly limited, and I would guess the age on these forums probably trends higher than some.   

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 22, 2021, 05:21:08 PM
The problem is that I simply don't include it because that's not my style, Miss Red Panda is Mr. Red Panda's fiance and in Elsben he (gasp!) heroically protects her from an Elsbenian knight several times his size. But leftists will DEMAND all of the "inclusiveness" even in a game where sex does not play a role. If someone wants to have a game with homosexual characters then either I won't play or- if it's not about virtue signalling- simply not care.

I'm fine with you running things because that's your style -- but if other people run things in a different style, I've got no problem with that either. There's always a subset of people who will DEMAND that things be run according to their style, but they don't actually have the power to do so in my games.

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 22, 2021, 05:21:08 PM
By the way, has anyone noticed how radical feminism fouls up hero's journeys? If a male hero is up against a female villain he is not allowed to pummel her into defeat so in such cases a third party- apparently in a "Thor" movie it was some sort of titanic lava monster- must finish the job. This is "deus ex machina" and is not very satisfying, heck even a later Dungeon Master's guide said it was bad gaming- it's not much better in a superhero movie.

I believe you're talking about Thor: Ragnarok, which is a movie I loved. I'm happy to discuss it with you - but since you apparently haven't seen it or even know it's name, that seems tricky. Do you mind spoilers? I thought the ending was a great, and it wasn't at all a deus ex machina - since it was through the protagonists' agency. Having the evil villain caught in their exploding base, or dropped into a volcano, or eaten by their own monster is a very old trope for action movies - and not a signal of radical feminism, in my opinion.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 22, 2021, 07:09:01 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 22, 2021, 05:09:33 PM
I'm in agreement about the principle here - but I guess I'm older. I grew up being told that homosexuals and other diversity are offensive - they were banned or censored from publication. My games frequently have these things. I'm not going to bend with the wind and take them out of my games based on the political climate. I run my games to have fun the way I like.

  Other diversity sounds weird.  You mean what by that?  People told you people being homosexuals was offensive, for existing?   I also find it strange someone was telling you this in NYC, but then again those WASPs used to have quite the foothold there.   Or do you mean middle school kids called one another f#gs?

I was born in 1970 and grew up very slightly upstate in New York in Rockland County (about a half hour north of NYC). And yeah, at the time, homosexuals were offensive for existing. Teachers would be summarily fired if they came out as gay, and kids would likely not just be called f*gs, but beaten up by their peers. Other diversity also wasn't welcome. On my elementary school yard, the recurring chant was "A fight! A fight! A n***ger and a white!" -- and I overheard friends' parents talking concernedly about how even the private swimming pools might start letting black people in.

Quote from: jhkim on September 22, 2021, 07:43:12 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 22, 2021, 07:09:01 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 22, 2021, 05:09:33 PM
I'm in agreement about the principle here - but I guess I'm older. I grew up being told that homosexuals and other diversity are offensive - they were banned or censored from publication. My games frequently have these things. I'm not going to bend with the wind and take them out of my games based on the political climate. I run my games to have fun the way I like.

  Other diversity sounds weird.  You mean what by that?  People told you people being homosexuals was offensive, for existing?   I also find it strange someone was telling you this in NYC, but then again those WASPs used to have quite the foothold there.   Or do you mean middle school kids called one another f#gs?

I was born in 1970 and grew up very slightly upstate in New York in Rockland County (about a half hour north of NYC). And yeah, at the time, homosexuals were offensive for existing. Teachers would be summarily fired if they came out as gay, and kids would likely not just be called f*gs, but beaten up by their peers. Other diversity also wasn't welcome. On my elementary school yard, the recurring chant was "A fight! A fight! A n***ger and a white!" -- and I overheard friends' parents talking concernedly about how even the private swimming pools might start letting black people in.

  I guess that is what happens in upstate NY.  Where I grew up it was 30 percent black.  Chant that, and you get your ass kicked.   I never saw a gay guy get their ass beat, matter of fact I saw the gay kid kick some other kid's balls to the roof of his mouth for calling him a f#g.  He always wore cowboy boots too, so it was not great for the kid who caught it in the pills.   I guess I never knew how racist NY was.

   added = had a gay 7th grade teacher.  I find it strange the south was less racist (well, we did have the Klan, but when I was a kid they seemed more interested in getting into shootouts with commies, and everyone I knew was not a fan) and homophobic than the enlightened NY state (we are almost the same age).   I guess the labels are sometimes misleading.