Quote from: Shasarak;1100963Have you tried just not buying any more expansions?

That seems like it would work.

Expansions are one thing. New lands and places. Filling in all the blanks and populating every hex is a different thing and part therein of the problem that many TSR settings eventually suffered.

Quote from: Omega;1101122Expansions are one thing. New lands and places. Filling in all the blanks and populating every hex is a different thing and part therein of the problem that many TSR settings eventually suffered.

Yes if you follow all of the expansions then the settings fill up, thats true.

And on the other hand, if you just use the original setting then it still has all of the blank spaces that you want and you save money not having to buy each new expansion.  Its like a win-win.

Interesting thread.

One element I'd like to add to the mix is that premodern civilizations, by and large, imagined some kind of "Fall" from a "Golden Age" of some kind, perhaps occuring in a cyclical manner (e.g. the Indian yugas). Almost every mythology imagined some variation of Golden Age, Fall, and Renewal. The Fall could involve being kicked out of Eden, a flood, fire, a "star from heaven," and generally was caused by humanity screwing up and the gods punishing us for it. In other words, this is a universal theme to most (premodern) world cultures; I don't know if there was any intentionality on EGG's part, but given that D&D's implied setting is premodern, this makes sense.

Also, given the relatively recent theory of the Younger Dryas Event, which seems to be gathering steam--especially after the discovery of a possible impact crater in Greenland--it may be that this mythology is based in actual history. I mean, if nearly all of the world's mythologies has some variation of a "Time Before" and an apocalypse that ended it, maybe there's something to it beyond mere metaphor?

That aside, lost civilizations and an unknown history is an intrinsic part of what makes D&D sing. It can be very evocative and wonder-inspiring. This is a key component of fantasy and science fiction in other genres: the "sense of wonder," of either figuring out what the deal is with that mysterious alien artifact, or who the people were that once lived in these dead ruins (and why do their spirits still haunt them).

I mean, not to get all deep in my first foray into discussion here, but isn't that an essential--even central--aspect of our human experience? The mystery of our origins? Of how we came to be? And the more we learn, the more we realize that we don't know? Do we really understand Stonehenge or the Giza Pyramids or whether there is existence beyond the physical? No matter what theories we come up with, they're just theories and there are always gaps, leading to a kind of eternal mystery of existence.

What I'm getting at is that if nothing else, the apocalypse in the distant past is akin to a literary device that holds the potential to not only provide context for the ruins to be explored, but the opportunity to experience curiosity and even wonder. The mystery of the world that the PCs explore. I've played in games that are all about a defined plot or killing things and taking their stuff or building kingdoms, but for me that sense of wonder and mystery about Terra Incognita is always tickling at the edge of awareness.

Thank you so much for the Younger Dryas Event!!! That's awesome!

Must use must use must use!

Quote from: Mercurius;1101126Interesting thread.

One element I'd like to add to the mix is that premodern civilizations, by and large, imagined some kind of "Fall" from a "Golden Age" of some kind, perhaps occuring in a cyclical manner (e.g. the Indian yugas). Almost every mythology imagined some variation of Golden Age, Fall, and Renewal. The Fall could involve being kicked out of Eden, a flood, fire, a "star from heaven," and generally was caused by humanity screwing up and the gods punishing us for it.

'Kicked out of Eden' myths are more about loss of childhood innocence. Myths like 'The Flood', which we see in a bunch of different cultures - did the Roman version in school Latin class, part of Ovid's Metamorphoses AIR - definitely are Apocalypse myths.

I like the Greenland impact crater as a likely world ending thing for my Primeval Thule campaign, but I don't think the Younger Dryas was the source of the flood myths; they date at earliest from several thousand years later, when massive flooding in the fertile crescent region likely impacted an agricultural civilisation. I think this was around the same time the last of Doggerland in the North Sea finally submerged, around the time of the post Ice Age Climate Optimum (ie when it was warm & wet).

Quote from: JeremyR;1100516Wasn't this posted here originally? I've never heard of that blog.

Also there really weren't "domain" rules in 1e, just some vague guidelines. Not like the Companion set (which I remember buying just to use with AD&D). Nor like the Birthright rules in 2e.

But I think the idea of a golden age and then a cataclysm is pretty common in real world mythology/folklore. Mostly as a way of explaining why things suck so much. (And it's most definitely in Lord of the Rings, where each age is suckier)

I also bought the Companion set when it came out to use for mass combat (The War Machine) and domain management in my AD&D game.

Quote from: Chris24601;1100629To be pendantic, AD&D 1e is actually Post-post-apocalyptic. The actual destruction is far enough in the past that communities and individuals can just now start looking beyond day-to-day survival and towards the larger world and the opportunities it presents.

Our Migration Period. Entire "barbarian" peoples moving from northern and eastern Europe to as far away as North Africa, to become assimilated into a post-Roman culture.

Quote from: Conanist;1100728I agree with much that has been posted here, although I would attribute the Magic User thing more to the Dying Earth influence than a specific post apocalyptic intent. While a lot of the published settings that were in vogue in late 1e/2e had their own apocalypses, Dark Sun was really based on that premise. I'd be interested in what the genesis for that was.

I think another factor is that eventually the RPGs themselves become fuel for what comes later, rather than just the fantasy novels and medieval history. Longsword is the default 1 handed sword because it was that way in D&D. It is actually a hand and a half sword and something like an arming sword or viking sword would be more appropriate. The Ranger character always has at least the option of a pet now, because of Warcraft and Drizzt. I imagine many players don't know what the big deal is with a black runesword other than it was in some other game, etc.

If I were to run 1E AD&D again I would have the bastard sword be -the- default longsword, whether arming, hand-and-a-half, or viking sword (retain the bastard sword damage if two-handed; longsword damage if one-handed). I would discard the old broadsword as that was from faulty research books. I might consider using the higher-damage arrows from 2E (ie. war bows). I loved the 1E Rangers.

Quote from: S'mon;1101198'Kicked out of Eden' myths are more about loss of childhood innocence. Myths like 'The Flood', which we see in a bunch of different cultures - did the Roman version in school Latin class, part of Ovid's Metamorphoses AIR - definitely are Apocalypse myths.

I like the Greenland impact crater as a likely world ending thing for my Primeval Thule campaign, but I don't think the Younger Dryas was the source of the flood myths; they date at earliest from several thousand years later, when massive flooding in the fertile crescent region likely impacted an agricultural civilisation. I think this was around the same time the last of Doggerland in the North Sea finally submerged, around the time of the post Ice Age Climate Optimum (ie when it was warm & wet).

Myths can be interpreted in a variety of ways; I wouldn't want to reduce them to any singular interpretation. For instance, Eden/Golden Age could be interpreted as childhood, the womb (with the "flood" being birth), pre-agricultural society, antidiluvian civilization (e.g. Atlantis), pre-incarnational existence (spiritual realms), etc. Myths aren't allegories where the meaning is singular; they are more symbolic, and multi-faceted in meaning. IMO, of course.

Similarly with your second paragraph: there were likely numerous "floods" - local and larger scale. See, for instance, the work of Randall Carlson, as popularized by Graham Hancock. They've been interviewed by Joe Rogan several times. In their view, the Younger Dryas Event was a meteor that likely caused mass and cataclysmic flooding, perhaps due to rapid melting of glaciers. Interesting stuff.

Quote from: Mercurius;1101306Similarly with your second paragraph: there were likely numerous "floods" - local and larger scale. See, for instance, the work of Randall Carlson, as popularized by Graham Hancock. They've been interviewed by Joe Rogan several times. In their view, the Younger Dryas Event was a meteor that likely caused mass and cataclysmic flooding, perhaps due to rapid melting of glaciers. Interesting stuff.

What we know is that the Younger Dryas was a major cooling event, and it occurred when as far as we know there were only a few small
 permanent settlements, and agriculture was perhaps in its infancy in Anatolia and unknown almost everywhere. So the cultures it impacted were almost all nomadic hunter-gatherer not settled farmers. Hunter-gatherers move away when sea levels rise and other disasters occur. So it doesn't look like a particularly good candidate as a myth source to me.

Quote from: Mercurius;1101306Similarly with your second paragraph: there were likely numerous "floods" - local and larger scale. See, for instance, the work of Randall Carlson, as popularized by Graham Hancock. They've been interviewed by Joe Rogan several times. In their view, the Younger Dryas Event was a meteor that likely caused mass and cataclysmic flooding, perhaps due to rapid melting of glaciers. Interesting stuff.

How does a meteor strike cause rapid melting of glaciers?  I always thought that it would cause global cooling.

Quote from: S'mon;1101312What we know is that the Younger Dryas was a major cooling event, and it occurred when as far as we know there were only a few small
 permanent settlements, and agriculture was perhaps in its infancy in Anatolia and unknown almost everywhere. So the cultures it impacted were almost all nomadic hunter-gatherer not settled farmers. Hunter-gatherers move away when sea levels rise and other disasters occur. So it doesn't look like a particularly good candidate as a myth source to me.

Yes, it was a cooling event but then ended with a rapid heating up. I think the key is "as far as we know." We don't know a lot about human habitation in the Neolithic and before. What is interesting is how much inhabitable land 20-40,000 years ago is now underwater. Or for me the holy grail of archeology: the Sahara desert, which was lush and green with lakes around or just before Dynastic Egypt. This is a potential goldmine of knowledge of our past waiting to be discovered.

Quote from: Shasarak;1101320How does a meteor strike cause rapid melting of glaciers?  I always thought that it would cause global cooling.

Well, I'd refer you to Carlson/Hancock for a better answer than I can give. Any of the Joe Rogan podcasts are a lot of fun, if you're into this sort of thing.

If memory serves, I think Hancock's view is that the comet or meteor hit in North America (or possibly Greenland) around 12,800 BC, causing massive flooding and then a nuclear winter type effect that led to the Younger Dryas cooling and mass extinctions. 1,200 years later, Hancock speculates that more cometary fragments created a greenhouse effect that spiked temperatures, which led to massive flooding.

Here's a good short description of the Younger Dryas. Or if you don't want to click on the link, the first paragraph:

The Younger Dryas is one of the most well known examples of abrupt change. About 14,500 years ago, Earth's climate began to shift from a cold glacial world to a warmer interglacial state. Partway through this transition, temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere suddenly returned to near-glacial conditions. This near-glacial period is called the Younger Dryas, named after a flower (Dryas octopetala) that grows in cold conditions and that became common in Europe during this time. The end of the Younger Dryas, about 11,500 years ago, was particularly abrupt. In Greenland, temperatures rose 10°C (18°F) in a decade (Alley 2000). Other proxy records, including varved lake sediments in Europe, also display these abrupt shifts (Brauer et al. 2008).

There's also a good overview of the Younger Dryas impact theory here, especially as it might pertain to the origins of civilization.

Quote from: Conanist;1100728I agree with much that has been posted here, although I would attribute the Magic User thing more to the Dying Earth influence than a specific post apocalyptic intent. While a lot of the published settings that were in vogue in late 1e/2e had their own apocalypses, Dark Sun was really based on that premise. I'd be interested in what the genesis for that was.

I think another factor is that eventually the RPGs themselves become fuel for what comes later, rather than just the fantasy novels and medieval history. Longsword is the default 1 handed sword because it was that way in D&D. It is actually a hand and a half sword and something like an arming sword or viking sword would be more appropriate. The Ranger character always has at least the option of a pet now, because of Warcraft and Drizzt. I imagine many players don't know what the big deal is with a black runesword other than it was in some other game, etc.

The lightest and shortest Longswords are possibly hand-and-a-half. The only time you use a normal longsword in one hand on foot is when grappling or fending someone off with your off arm. And using one on horseback is rare. I don't think I've ever seen a shield in a longsword manual. Gygax got "broadsword" from the Victorians. No one called it that in its day.

Quote from: Mercurius;1101333Well, I'd refer you to Carlson/Hancock for a better answer than I can give. Any of the Joe Rogan podcasts are a lot of fun, if you're into this sort of thing.

If memory serves, I think Hancock's view is that the comet or meteor hit in North America (or possibly Greenland) around 12,800 BC, causing massive flooding and then a nuclear winter type effect that led to the Younger Dryas cooling and mass extinctions. 1,200 years later, Hancock speculates that more cometary fragments created a greenhouse effect that spiked temperatures, which led to massive flooding.

Here's a good short description of the Younger Dryas. Or if you don't want to click on the link, the first paragraph:

The Younger Dryas is one of the most well known examples of abrupt change. About 14,500 years ago, Earth's climate began to shift from a cold glacial world to a warmer interglacial state. Partway through this transition, temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere suddenly returned to near-glacial conditions. This near-glacial period is called the Younger Dryas, named after a flower (Dryas octopetala) that grows in cold conditions and that became common in Europe during this time. The end of the Younger Dryas, about 11,500 years ago, was particularly abrupt. In Greenland, temperatures rose 10°C (18°F) in a decade (Alley 2000). Other proxy records, including varved lake sediments in Europe, also display these abrupt shifts (Brauer et al. 2008).

There's also a good overview of the Younger Dryas impact theory here, especially as it might pertain to the origins of civilization.

Thanks Mercurius.  The good and bad thing about Joe Rogan podcasts is the length so this may take a little time.  =;0)

Threads about swords and meteors!!! I love this place.