Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 29, 2020, 11:32:41 AM
That would make for an interesting mechanic -- your spellcasting abilities being dependent on your Knowledge skills.

Pretty much how they worked in my own book. Player started as a Minstrel type, travelling entertainer and part time adventurer. A bit like some of the singing cowboys and swordsmen of old movie serials. No magic. Their forte was in knowing bits of gossip and local knowledge from all over the land and thus being of use at times when one needed a translator, amateur diplomat, etc. And some swordfighting skills. Or whatever they player happened to spec into.
Eventually they had the option of advancing into the bard, where their varied knowledge and delving allowed them some rudimentary access to spellcasting based on what lore they had picked up along the way. Things like alchemical lore, enchantment lore, curse lore, etc. And of course harmonic magic which was rare in the setting but could be discovered.

Quote from: SHARK on September 28, 2020, 09:00:04 PM

Greetings!

Periodically, I have heard that some people *hate* Bard characters in D&D games. I certainly believe that the "gameified" Bard has some problems and can be annoying--but I also think that has more to do with the presentation of Bards rather than particular class features or abilities. In historical times, Bards were immensely important kinds of people--such individuals were often invited to attend the local Lord's manor or estate soon upon arriving in the area...

This. I have a lot of people that just liked to play the TSR/WOTC Bards as written in PHB. I found them boring and uninspiring, and have never particularly liked these Bards or their limited (Gimped) abilities.

My traditional view of the Bard is that of a Loremaster, and a living Historian, one that uses music to enhance the traditional divination spells, and they inspire listeners to perform worthy and memorable deeds, and actions. In my campaigns for their spell list in addition to using the D&D Bard Spell List, Bards can also learn spells from the Divination, Enchantment, Illusion, and Summoning schools of magic, and forego the spell component, using whatever music they perform as the somatic component when casting these additional spells. They can also use any magic Item created by a Wizard, just like a Rogue, Wizard, or Sorceror can.

They use their music and storytelling to Charm their audience, and both NPC and Player Bards in my games are instrumental in revealing new clues and opportunities for players relaying information and the history and lore of my campaign worlds directly to the players. As a simple example, during an evening encampment in a newly explored area of my game world, the Bard could say, "I'll practice one of my songs about the history of this new area we are visiting and share what I know in song of this new place."

At this point I'd take the player playing the bard aside, and relay privately to them some vital bits of history such as the background history of a nearby ruin, or settlement, or noble family. Depending on the Bards performance skills check, I would relay either more, or more accurate, or less, and less accurate information to the player playing the bard. He/She then roleplays either actually singing for the other players, or describing how they perform the song to relay the knowledge contained in the music/performance in a manner the other players can understand.  Some of my previous players have really gotten into this, and this is a great character class for the player that showboats or who needs some extra time in the spotlight once in awhile.

So the Bards IMC can cast Divination spells like Identify, and Legend Lore and Unseen Servant, Summon Animals, Summon Monsters, etc. They can Detect Evil, Detect Invisibility, Cast ESP, Forget, Charm Person, Charm Monster, Scare, Clairaudience, Clairvoyance, Conjure Elementals, all like that... I of course, encourage Bards to come up with completely new unique to their character spells as well. Bards in my campaigns can interpret dreams, omens, riddles, signs, and portents, just like the ancient Norse storytellers, Like Floki, Habard and the Seer of Kattegat, all of whom I consider as Bards.

The other major inspiration for Bards in my campaigns, of course came from fiction, and I'll mention Patricia A. McKillip and the Riddlemaster of Hed series of Books as a powerful influence on my early perception of what a Bard character should be.. In this series the Bards were powerful shapeshifters. The novel and original trilogy utilize themes from Celtic mythology, The Riddle-Master is Morgon, the Prince of Hed, a Harpist from small, simple unremarkable island populated by farmers and swineherds. The prince, inexplicably, has three stars on his forehead, like Tatoos, but these were birthmarks. Morgon's sister Tristan discovers that he keeps a crown hidden under his bed. He explains that he won it in a riddle-game with the ghost of the cursed king Peven of Aum. When Deth, the High One's harpist, discover this, he explains that another king, Mathom of An, has pledged to marry his daughter Raederle to the man who wins that crown from the ghost. So that story begins. It was one of the best fantasy series I read from the 70's, and really defined what Bards could do in my early D&D games. Before the Bard Class was released as part of AD&D we had already been using them in our home games for several years, so of course we viewed AD&D Bards, as something that was just copied and then regurgitated by TSR, for the uninformed newb gamers.

Now I read the Riddlemaster Trilogy before I even started playing D&D and these stories featured Ioun Stones, which are high magic stones, and crystals, that floated or flew depending on the will of their owner. Ioun stones can be permanently imbued with magic spells. When I saw Ioun Stones first featured in the AD&D DMG back in 1980, I was already well aware of what they were, and what they could be used for, and they had been used extensively in my hone games from about mid-1978 on...     

Many of the Bard/Shapeshifters that were featured in my early D&D campaigns, or that I played in the early campaigns of my friends, of course each owned a small collection of Ioun Stones, some of which could be used to temporarily buff a stat like Intelligence or Charisma, some of which stored spells, and some that had unique abilities, or that granted a character special powers like the ability to speak with animals, monsters, or the dead. Bards like this were common in my early games, and deviated significantly from the AD&D Bard which I only first saw in 1980. Jack Vance used Ioun Stones in his stories, which is where Gary Gygax glommed onto them, and they were used by Wizards, but I only read those stories after reading the Riddlemaster series, so for me, Ioun stones were definitely a Bard or Shapeshifter character Item, albeit one that other Magic-users could use.

These are also the types of Bards, and the ones I really like, The Seers, and Oracles, and Diviners, that were charming were the ones that frequently were included in my early D&D games, either as a player, ...or a GM, that I like to include in my games now.

...and Rock N Roll Bards!
One other comment, our early perception of Bards in fantasy games were heavily influenced by Metal Rock Bands of course. It seemed them bands all got the best babes, who would throw themselves, as well as their lingerie and underwear at the band members during concerts, and literally catfight to be with them. This was something that us normal dweebs aspired to greatly during our high school years while gaming in the basement. I decided to personally test the theory that Bards were chick magnets and when I was living in El Paso, Texas in 1984 joined a band on tour for about a week once. Now I had frequented this rock and roll nightclub called the Treetop where live bands would perform, you know like Stryper, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Allman Brothers, Tokyo Rose, RockIt, Dark Hart, Uriah Heep, Looker, all the road tour bands that traveled around in Greyhound buses ...like that. I brought my expensive Olympia 35mm camera and did a photo shoot with the permission of the nightclub owner Mike, of a band that showed up to perform one weekend, Windfall. Long story short, they liked my photos and asked me to join them, and I did. Yes it's true. If you are in the band, the babes just throw themselves at you. Still have this 33RPM album that was gifted to me by Charlie, the lead singer of Windfall in exchange for my Indiana Jones Hat. The Bonfire party in the desert was the best! Three guitars, including a Bass, Drums of course, and a keyboard, Woot!

Windfall, Agora ballroom, Dallas Texas 1981
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WToBVJZP8mE

Windfall, 1985
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NAaCMECjZA   
           

Quote from: RandyB on September 28, 2020, 10:43:05 PM
First, "music is magic" dies in a fire. Done.

Second, bards as you describe them from history are loremasters. Not the "like wizards but no magic" types, but the Indiana Jones types. Travelers, adventurers, men of the world who seek both knowledge and experience. Men who live the tales, not the men who tell the tales of others in the safety of the local tavern.

Start from there and make bards for your games.

this! i hate the concept of music as magic very strongly.

As many have said, the bard exists in an aliterate culture, and in standard dungeon fantasy the know-it-all role is already taken by clerics and wizards.


Still, they seem to have slid the monk in, which was mostly based on kung fu movies (specifically, the Destroyer novels by Williams and Sapir). I'm guessing the monk fit well as an alternate fighter, whereas the bard tended to be done as jack-of-all-trades, and hence master of none.

Castles & Crusades does a good job with a non-caster bard, very based on the Norse skald so you got a sword-swinging poet who rouses the party to action. I've played one and the swift level progression was a boon. Perfect PC for me since I'm a ham actor as a player.

However, as a huge fan of the ancient Bard's Tale series (how has that not been revived???), I do love music as magic.

And I say 40k's Noise Marines = Chaotic Evil bards!

Quote from: Ravenswing on September 29, 2020, 06:23:02 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 29, 2020, 02:21:51 PMThey aren't archetypes--in a game that can't always decide whether classes are archetypes, mechanical packages, niche protection, or more likely, what proportion of the three.

Of course it's an archetype, by any legitimate definition of the term.  That many different roles can be defined as performers?  Sure, I agree: and the same thing can be said of any other D&D-ish "archetype."  Using the word "fighter" to categorize Conan, D'artagnan, Tempus, Belisarius, Lancelot, Croaker and Paksenarrion is just as broad.  Using the term "magic-user" to define Gandalf, Elric, Egwene, Morgon of Hed, Milamber, Bink, Garion, Mary Poppins and your bog-standard Evul Necromancer is just as all over the place.  D&Ders seem to have little problem managing to square the circle.

Here's the difference:  The fighter is mechanically simple.  There is really nothing in the mechanics to support the archetype except "can hit things" and "can take some hits".  The bard has specific bits taken from a kitchen sink from several different archetypes. 

Now granted, magic makes the whole thing fuzzy.  A wizard by itself is more like the fighter.  You start looking at the spells the wizard can do, you get some of the same kitchen sink mix.  The more a bard depends on spells to be a bard, the more it will get the same effect.

Or if I'm not being clear enough, the bard is in an uncanny valley for most people. 

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 01, 2020, 08:29:47 AMHere's the difference:  The fighter is mechanically simple.  There is really nothing in the mechanics to support the archetype except "can hit things" and "can take some hits".  The bard has specific bits taken from a kitchen sink from several different archetypes.

You're either arguing apples and turnips, or defining the word "archetype" as meaning "pre-AD&D character classes."  Leaving aside that quite a few gamers don't play D&D, there is nothing about archetypes that is defined by only two elements.  Just as well, or thieves, mages and clerics -- each with broad baskets of skills and powers -- would be SOL too.  That TSR botched the mechanics in 1980 doesn't invalidate the concept.

But sure, let's reduce minstrels/performers to their lowest common denominator.  With a nod to the posters above, they "know stuff," "entertain people" and "charm people."  That's not a whole lot.  Can some fight well?  Sure, if they're designed to do so. †  Can some cast spells?  Sure, if they're designed to do so.  For my part, I define ten broad adventuring archetypes for which I provide templates for the faint at heart.

† Disclaimer: I've been GMing point-buy systems for almost 40 years now.  None of the above is incongruous, IMHO.

I think that a great deal of the disconnect between RPG bards and their historical or legendary antecedents is due to a lot of what makes up a bard's role and cultural significance being largely up to RP, rather than something that can be properly defined in terms of class features. A lot of what a bard can do in terms of storytelling, news and entertainment is stuff that pretty much anyone can do with just a few interaction, knowledge and performance skills. You don't really need an entire class based around it, specially if you stretch the term "Bard" to mean "anyone who gathers lore and spreads news".

Celtic bards are a different deal because they fulfill a religious role in a tribal culture relying on oral traditions to pass down their history. And even then they're basically just wizards with lore keeping, poetic and oratory skills. They could arguably be clerics or druids instead, but the arcane/divine dichotomy is a D&D invention with no historical antecedents (every single historical mystical tradition, including those purporting to be "magicians", has a spiritual component) and the sort of stuff legendary celtic bards are portrayed as doing sounds more like "wizard" magic to me in D&D terms, so I'm more inclined to say they're wizards (and even more inclined to just fold all spell casting into a single class, but that's another tangent).

Either way the point being that Celtic bards are mechanically full spell casters (wizards, clerics or druids) with a "Bard" kit rather than a stand alone class. This is one of the pitfalls of trying to work every single possible role into its own separate class, rather than working with a handful of core classes and expanding on them with 2e-style kits (or subclasses, professions, whatever you wanna call them) that grant them a couple of extra abilities to fulfill a specialized role, which is more effective and requires less bookkeeping.

Quote from: Ravenswing on October 01, 2020, 09:19:51 AM
You're either arguing apples and turnips, or defining the word "archetype" as meaning "pre-AD&D character classes."  Leaving aside that quite a few gamers don't play D&D, there is nothing about archetypes that is defined by only two elements.  Just as well, or thieves, mages and clerics -- each with broad baskets of skills and powers -- would be SOL too.  That TSR botched the mechanics in 1980 doesn't invalidate the concept.

No.  I'm saying that there are fault lines in D&D classes and the bard archetypes (plural) used don't fit well within them. 

Of course, you'll get similar issues in point-buy games too, but that's less about the mismatch of archetypes and mechanics and more the mismatch between archetypes and what the players want to do. Example, I can much more easily build a pacifistic healer in GURPS or Hero System than D&D, but if the players want to go tomb robbing, the character probably won't work well.  Try to do that in D&D, and it either ends up with stupid tricks or just doesn't work.  So people don't try. 

But you seem to have misunderstood what I was saying.  I'm not saying there are no such things as archetypes that can be loosely considered "bardic".  I'm saying that that the school of class design that tries to make classes centered on a key points in archetypes can't do that with the collection of those bardic archetypes.  To take just two:  Traveling minstrel versus tradition keeping, lore memorizing, druidic side-kick are too far apart.  If you had a generic set of mechanics in the class, you might make that work like the fighter.  But D&D did not go generic with the bard.  They used very specific things from those different traditions--and then overtime it became (again, like the ranger), more a case of following the earlier D&D lead rather than checking the source material.

Short version:  The 5E bard kind of works because the designers threw out about half or more of the accumulated "bard stuff" and went back to "wizard-like lore guy with a bit of music". Then they threw some of the off stuff back in with the bardic spells, but you can't have everything.

I had a player in my OD&D game who wanted to play a bard so he took a Magic-User made CHA his highest score and INT his number two, and we agreed that instead of any reagents, chants, gestures to cast spells, instead he needed to be playing an instrument. Of course, he named him Bowie the Bard. 

Boom done.

We could have done the same with a Cleric of a Music god (music as holy symbol) or just a Fighter with a high INT/CHA combo and average physical attributes.

It gets even easier if you port in Primes from Castles & Crusades. Pick two abilities, you get ADV with those ability roll, they reflect your areas of study / focus / talent.

I got to play a Lore of Valor Bard in Planescape up to 7th level.  Man I loved it!  He was a blacksmith and a skald -- used a guitar and basically played working man tunes.  Although I based him on Other Jared from Silicon Valley personality wise since my character was a Believer of the Source so he was constantly spouting self-help junk and corpspeak.

Big thing was that he was big and tough and tended to solve stuff with his sword first and spells second.  And his magic was more based around Inspirational Speeches given that he was basically a Motivational Speaker.

I've been playing a Finnish (alternate fantasy Earth) 5E Lore Bard with the Outlander background (Finns really didn't have anything like cities until well past the middle-ages) and loving it with the music as magic. He wrested a dragon from the sky with his song (Command spell to "approach"), and then used his training in Athletics to grapple him in place (it was a small dragon) so that the Swedish barbarian could tear into him without the dragon flying off. It seemed to me to be in line with the Finnish tale of Väinämöinen singing his opponent Joukahainen deep into the ground.

I don't understand the hate on music as magic. Besides the Celtic and Finnish traditions using this, you'd have to take a piss on the Music of the Ainur from the Silmarillion. I think music as magic can especially make sense if you take that magic existed before writing and written lore come into being.

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 01, 2020, 10:03:35 AM
I think that a great deal of the disconnect between RPG bards and their historical or legendary antecedents is due to a lot of what makes up a bard's role and cultural significance being largely up to RP, rather than something that can be properly defined in terms of class features. A lot of what a bard can do in terms of storytelling, news and entertainment is stuff that pretty much anyone can do with just a few interaction, knowledge and performance skills. You don't really need an entire class based around it, specially if you stretch the term "Bard" to mean "anyone who gathers lore and spreads news".

Celtic bards are a different deal because they fulfill a religious role in a tribal culture relying on oral traditions to pass down their history. And even then they're basically just wizards with lore keeping, poetic and oratory skills. They could arguably be clerics or druids instead, but the arcane/divine dichotomy is a D&D invention with no historical antecedents (every single historical mystical tradition, including those purporting to be "magicians", has a spiritual component) and the sort of stuff legendary celtic bards are portrayed as doing sounds more like "wizard" magic to me in D&D terms, so I'm more inclined to say they're wizards (and even more inclined to just fold all spell casting into a single class, but that's another tangent).

Either way the point being that Celtic bards are mechanically full spell casters (wizards, clerics or druids) with a "Bard" kit rather than a stand alone class. This is one of the pitfalls of trying to work every single possible role into its own separate class, rather than working with a handful of core classes and expanding on them with 2e-style kits (or subclasses, professions, whatever you wanna call them) that grant them a couple of extra abilities to fulfill a specialized role, which is more effective and requires less bookkeeping.

Greetings!

Excellent analysis, VisionStorm! Very interesting making Bards as a Wizard with a Bard kit or template. Nice!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: wmarshal on October 03, 2020, 10:11:02 PM
I've been playing a Finnish (alternate fantasy Earth) 5E Lore Bard with the Outlander background (Finns really didn't have anything like cities until well past the middle-ages) and loving it with the music as magic. He wrested a dragon from the sky with his song (Command spell to "approach"), and then used his training in Athletics to grapple him in place (it was a small dragon) so that the Swedish barbarian could tear into him without the dragon flying off. It seemed to me to be in line with the Finnish tale of Väinämöinen singing his opponent Joukahainen deep into the ground.

I don't understand the hate on music as magic. Besides the Celtic and Finnish traditions using this, you'd have to take a piss on the Music of the Ainur from the Silmarillion. I think music as magic can especially make sense if you take that magic existed before writing and written lore come into being.

Greetings!

Very good points, Wmarshal. Celtic, Baltic, and as you mention, Finnish mythology has Bards and music very prominently, using music interwoven as magic and part of their spells.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK