Quote from: CRKrueger;416564Amber uses cards not dice

No, actually it doesn't. It doesn't have a randomizer at all.

Seanchai

Yeah, Amber doesn't use any randomizer at all now, does it?

Quote from: CRKrueger;416564*snip*
Amber uses cards not dice
*snip*.

:huhsign:
no cards in Amber...

to say that a GM is needed to aid in emulation seems strange...why cant MATURE players riff off each other and the initial set-up of the game using source materials for inspiration/limits?
Lets break it down...RPG?
Role: A fictional character.Allows one to interact within a given setting.
Playing: The act of doing...participation in an activity.
Game: codified process for fun. Sometimes having distinct winner/loser paradigms.
so why all this nonsense about GM/Player dichotimy,just because the first iteration of the field had it?
The term RPG seems very nebulous IMO.
Is this good? opinions vary, but to say a form of the hobby is something entirely diff. well...By that logic a diesel isn't a car then...
same results diff. fuel, thats all man.
But I do think the "make" (trad./newschool/story) of the game should be conveyed when talking about them!

Most GM-less (Forgey?) games have strict rules to limit the possibility of imature players derailing the genre/setting chosen.Depends on what sort of game the group wants and agrees to. Sometimes over the top stuff is funny and fitting.

I am wondering if Pundit and others have actualy read/played many well run games like this...:idunno:

Quote from: RPGPundit;416524It depends. If the "fate points etc." you're talking about are actually a mechanic that emulates things like resources available or exceptional effort on the part of the player character, there is nothing wrong with them.
On the other hand, if they are meant to allow the player to alter the fundamental reality of the setting without justification on the part of the character's actual abilities, then there's a serious problem.

So, "points" that let you have a +2 to your roll or remove a level of damage are in no way outside of the regularity of RPGs.
"Points" that let you suddenly decide that there's a missle launcher hidden inside a car, or that the king wants to make you a duke instead of execute you, when neither of these things are within any power of your PC to do it, but are based exclusively on the PLAYER'S whim, are clearly irregular from the perspective of RPGs.

RPGPundit

See I have a problem with that. I played the shit out of 007 from '84 through to '87. So this is long before the forge or narritavism or all that bollocks. Hero Points do exactly that they let you find a rocket launcher in the back of a car or a flare pistol or whatever. The GM decides how many points based on the likelihood of it happening. Is that not an RPG?
In my Amber games I allow PCs to create NPCs at the character generation phase, and I am not talking about using in game powers later on to find NPCs of a certain type, I let the PC spend a point to have an ally in Amber and to create that NPC. That is pretty much per the rule book and its certainly a fair interpretation of the RAW. Does that stop Amber being an RPG, no of course not.

Quote from: jibbajibba;416583Hero Points do exactly that they let you find a rocket launcher in the back of a car or a flare pistol or whatever. The GM decides how many points based on the likelihood of it happening. Is that not an RPG?

Yes, but it's an RPG that's trying to immerse into a James Bond movie, not a "World in Motion".

Quote from: Seanchai;416568No, actually, this is pretty good crap. I think the number of folks who will agree that dice aren't part of the fundamental structure of the first RPGs is going to be shockingly low.

The idea of GM as ultimate authority is intrinsic to RPGs, according to Pundit, because that's the paradigm the first RPGs set up. Fine. But when push comes to shove, does he really believe that?

Seanchai

He doesn't believe that the DM/player relationship defines RPGsbecause Gygax did it, he believes that RPings started with the DM/player relationship because that's the best way to achieve the emulation of a world and the immersion that comes from it.

You're putting the cart before the horse semantically because you're still grinding the axe on Pundit.  As I said, there's plenty of real crap to get him on, not this stupid sophistry for the sake of pissing someone off.

Quote from: CRKrueger;416602Yes, but it's an RPG that's trying to immerse into a James Bond movie, not a "World in Motion".

So it's not an RPG? And it seems to be a world in which there is a requirement for internal consistency within the relm of the genre itself.

Quote from: BWA;416566Why is that relationship fundamental? What does the GM provide that cannot be provided by another player, in a game with a different distribution of authority?

Setting consistency and coherency.   In a traditional immersive rpg, the point of the ruleset is to be the "physics engine" of a world.  A world that is, within it's own internal structure, realistic.  That reality may include magic or it may include plasma rifles, but Lord of the Rings doesn't have plasma rifles and Traveller doesn't have demons and devils.

When a single person has the ultimate authority over a world, it is consistent.  An NPC that reacts one way one session will act the same way the next.  When you have shared authority mechanics, and players can "edit" the world, then the setting is not internally consistent by definition because we all look at a RPG setting and have different opinions as to how exactly things work.

Games with rules that allow for shared narration or authority are not primarily concerned with setting emulation, they are primarily concerned with story creation or with genre emulation, which is something else entirely.
 

Quote from: BWA;4165662. If a character is the primary tool with which an RPG player engages the game and the fictional world (which I'll certainly accept), why is immersion into that character's mindset the ONLY appropriate way to play?

Strawman.  I'm not saying that's the only way to play.  You could roll randomly every decision your character makes, then have fun all night making that into a story if you wanted to.  Add in alcohol and fun will be had by all...but that isn't immersive roleplaying.

How can I get from my home to the grocery store?  Well I can walk, run, drive, or ride.  All are viable ways for getting from Point A to Point B, however if I am Walking, I am not Running.  If I am riding my bike, I am, by definition, not driving my car.

If you are playing a character for the purposes of doing something other then immersing into that character's mindset, then you're not role-playing from an in-character point-of-view.  Some people call that not role-playing at all.  I choose to call it a different form of roleplaying.

Quote from: jibbajibba;416605So it's not an RPG? And it seems to be a world in which there is a requirement for internal consistency within the relm of the genre itself.

I'm not sure why this topic seems to turn everyone into a Strawman-making machine.  What I said was

Yes, but it's an RPG that's trying to immerse into a James Bond movie, not a "World in Motion".

Genre emulation is not the same thing as setting emulation.  007 would suck as a game if it didn't emulate the genre of James Bond movies very well.  However, it is lousy at emulating our world at the same time period using spies when "James Bond Rules" don't apply.

Quote from: CRKrueger;416616Genre emulation is not the same thing as setting emulation.

Ohh. I like that.

Quote from: jibbajibba;416583See I have a problem with that. I played the shit out of 007 from '84 through to '87. So this is long before the forge or narritavism or all that bollocks. Hero Points do exactly that they let you find a rocket launcher in the back of a car or a flare pistol or whatever. The GM decides how many points based on the likelihood of it happening. Is that not an RPG?
In my Amber games I allow PCs to create NPCs at the character generation phase, and I am not talking about using in game powers later on to find NPCs of a certain type, I let the PC spend a point to have an ally in Amber and to create that NPC. That is pretty much per the rule book and its certainly a fair interpretation of the RAW. Does that stop Amber being an RPG, no of course not.

Usually even writing a background for your character means the player is creating NPCs. Is this really a problem? You can't create a character 'in character' since they don't exist yet, so it can't interfere with immersion.

Quote from: Koltar;416271Yeah?

 Well you're wrong.

In any good, playable RPG - the GM is the final authority and arbiter.


- Ed C.

Oh yes, I am wrong because you say so. Nice try, Koltar. Maybe next time.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;416670Oh yes, I am wrong because you say so. Nice try, Koltar. Maybe next time.

Why thank you .

 This must be a hell of a "try" because I seem to have at least ten or more people backing me up on this one.

And no you're not wrong because " I " say so....you're wrong because of all the evidence in all the groups that have played RPGs over the years proove you to be wrong.

There's doesn't have to be a next time - we got this thread right here and and nice sky blue & chocolate colored forum.


- Ed C.

(Someone pass the snacks? Who's making popcorn?)

Quote from: Koltar;416671This must be a hell of "try" because I seem to have at least ten or more people backing me up on this one.

And no you're not wrong because " I " say so....you're wrong because of all the evidence in all the groups that have played RPGs over the years proove you to be wrong.
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and a lot of people disagreeing with you, saying that they got a different than your "all the groups that have played RPGs over the years" and therefore being branded straw men

Look, right now I am writing a Star Wars scenario for a convention, it’s in three part.

In the first part, the four players get their pregenerated characters, all rebels serving as a lawmen shortly after the Battle of Endor. In this part, they get go search for some missing droids (yes...). It’s a totally normal rpg, where the GM guides them through, tells them what they encounter and takes care of the npc’s. The plot is also laid out, so the scenario text says, where the droids are and who stole them. The GM is the final authority.

In the second part, our four rebels are called out to a case of a stolen light saber. In this part, the players split up in two or three groups, and go out to investigate and interrogate suspects and witnesses. The twist here is, that the npc’s aren’t controlled by the GM, but are in the hands of the players not active in the scene. The npcs being nothing more than a mugshot and a name/title before they get in the hands of the players (Dimar, a rodian fence for example). So if player A & B go and talk to a couple of smugglers, the two scoundrels are played by player C & D. They are out of the GMs control. The GM cannot control what the information the smuggler give the two player characters and has no say in where and what direction the two npcs sends the players and the scenario. In this part there is no defined bad guy – I don’t write in the scenario text, that Robert the Huth is the culprit. The culprit is whoever the players end up deciding is culprit, based on the roleplaying and investigation they do. The GMs role here is only moderation, to keep the flow of the scenario going, maybe cutting some scenes if the drag on or goes nowhere, but that’s it. Not a lot of final authority.

In the third part, there’s a murder on the planet and one of the characters is involved. Neither of those two things are plottet out or defined in the text and the GM has no control over it. Actually before this part starts, the GM must leave the room, and let the players plot out who gets killed (using the npc's from the second part), who’s involved and the stand of the other characters in the case. The GM then returns, and in the role of a New Republic investigator, he has to try and piece the puzzle together, by interviewing/interrogating (roleplaying) the characters, while the players gets to obstruct or help the course of justice, try to frame someone/each other or take care of npcs, like in the second part. The scenario ends, when the GM decides to make an arrest, based on his/her investigation. No authority for the GM.

I consider all these three parts roleplaying. People will be in character, there’s plenty of room for immersive play, there's a (skeleton) plot but in two out of three parts, the GM will have little or no authority over the scenario. Would you describe  my scenario as anything other than a roleplaying game?

Quote from: CRKrueger;416616I'm not sure why this topic seems to turn everyone into a Strawman-making machine.  What I said was

Yes, but it's an RPG that's trying to immerse into a James Bond movie, not a "World in Motion".

Genre emulation is not the same thing as setting emulation.  007 would suck as a game if it didn't emulate the genre of James Bond movies very well.  However, it is lousy at emulating our world at the same time period using spies when "James Bond Rules" don't apply.

Calm down tiger

I was directing this as Pundit since his claim seems to be that games where PCs can make changes to the world outside the abilities of their characters is not an RPG, or at least have issues being called RPGs.

And Genre and setting are exactly the same thing. Now I can agree that genre and Realism are not the same thing.

If your claim is merely that James bond is not a realistic RPG then we have no issue at all, but I have used the James bond rules to play a Tinker, Tailor, Solider, Spy game and all I had to change was the tone of the NPCs, the gadgets and the mood lighting, I never touched the rules and never had to modify Hero Points at all.