Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1061957The existence of evil races is an inherently sadistic concept, because the only reason you would ever need evil races is to cause suffering. Why would you want to cause suffering? Who knows!

Why would you want your imaginary world to contain imaginary creatures which cause imaginary suffering?  So that the players' characters can stop them!

The nature of the imaginary opponents is closely correlated to the desired style of game - if you want to have a beer & pretzels romp where the PCs mindlessly trash monsters by the dozen, then you're more likely to have monsters which are equally mindless and "always evil", while a more nuanced and morally ambiguous game generally calls for nuanced and morally ambiguous foes.

Quote from: nDervish;1062053Why would you want your imaginary world to contain imaginary creatures which cause imaginary suffering?  So that the players' characters can stop them!

Seems like there is some inherent problematic structures of oppression that need to be unpacked here...why not run a more inclusive, socially conscious RPG where there's no conflict? For example, we could get rid of the "fighter" class and replace it with the "befriender."

Quote from: SHARK;1062018Greetings!

You know, Ratman, your comments here reminded me with a good laugh, but also the irony--a long time ago, when I used to debate eager young liberals at my university, after some time, I lamented the fact that these people were *not* interested in facts, evidence, and truth. Time and time again, whether the debate was about women in combat, guns, foreign policy, biology, crime policy, social welfare policy--no matter how many facts were presented, none of it ultimately mattered. The liberals would always resort to a conclusive dismissal of your argument based on emotion and ideology--not facts, or truth. That soon led me to ultimately conclude that liberals, and liberalism--is really a kind of mental disease, a psychological disease of the mind that seems to totally *unhinge* them from any kind of reality. They are entirely incapable of comprehending reality in any meaningful way. Today's SJW's are merely the most recent "flavour of the month" incarnation of these people. Whether they go by the name of "Social Progressives", "Progressives", "Liberals", or "SJW's"--they are all, whether they realise it or not--they are all part of the post-modernist, Marxist soup. My buddies in the Marines would simply dismiss them "They're all just a bunch of fucking Communists!".

I say all of that as a context for seeing the depth of your comment. "The Drow are not real!"--even in this, our RPG hobby, the SJW's break with reality becomes frighteningly all too clear.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I don't buy Patriarchy Theory, and it's rotten fruits (male gaze, toxic masculinity, etc) So I'm perfectly fine with "traditional" masculinity, and male sexuality. Which does seem to bother a lot of "progressives".
If I have Drow in my campaign, they're going to have jet black skin, be a cruel matriarchy, wear chainmail bikinis and have a BDSM undertone. It's a goddamn game, and I'll indulge tropes as much as I like and the group will go with. I can manage this and refrain from going on a patriarchy infused rape spree.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1062062I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I don't buy Patriarchy Theory, and it's rotten fruits (male gaze, toxic masculinity, etc) So I'm perfectly fine with "traditional" masculinity, and male sexuality. Which does seem to bother a lot of "progressives".

As a ruling system, Patriarchy has proven to be terrible for men.  Women get live longer than men by 5 or so years.  Women get to initiate divorce scottfree and when they do, they get money to live on, but the men usually don't.  Women have at least 14 different methods of birth control, men have 2 maybe 3.  Women spend 60% less time in jail for committing the exact same crimes.  Women got the vote without any responsibilities, while men had to accept the risk of being drafted into the Military.  Women still spend 60% of the world's money...

Yeah, for a pro-man government, it's doing a terrible job.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1062062If I have Drow in my campaign, they're going to have jet black skin, be a cruel matriarchy, wear chainmail bikinis and have a BDSM undertone. It's a goddamn game, and I'll indulge tropes as much as I like and the group will go with.

That's metal as FUCK!  \m/  I'm stealing this.

The problem with demi-humans in D&D is they are too human, and thus allow all sorts of wankery about modern politics and culture.

In using Drow, I suggest playing up their non-human aspects. They're magical spider elves. They're evil fae. Their behavior is far more spider than human.

Here's the Wikipedia entry for Spiders. I'm sure we can graft bits to the Drow to increase their coolness, and negate the wankery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider

Quote from: Spinachcat;1062097The problem with demi-humans in D&D is they are too human, and thus allow all sorts of wankery about modern politics and culture.

Same goes for humanoids. They aren't analogs to human cultures - they're monsters. Nothing like any human society that has ever existed. Superhumanly brutal. Cannibals. They revel in murder and cruelty. Monsters.

I never fail to be astonished by how many people who play fantasy roleplaying games (or read fantasy fiction) have feeble imaginations.

Not just feebleminded also insecure about themselves with a extra side helping of self loathing. Normal sane do not get offended and triggered at everything and anything. While seeing evil in every dark corner.

Quote from: Haffrung;1062109Same goes for humanoids. They aren't analogs to human cultures - they're monsters. Nothing like any human society that has ever existed. Superhumanly brutal. Cannibals. They revel in murder and cruelty. Monsters.

I never fail to be astonished by how many people who play fantasy roleplaying games (or read fantasy fiction) have feeble imaginations.

The real Aztecs, Mongols, Assyrians, Persians, Han, Comanche, etc had what we would consider inhumanly brutal cultures. The thing about all this hand-wringing is that if you were to put a society in your culture that actually functioned like a 9th-century caliphate or hell, even something that resembled Actual Rome more than Movie Rome, you'd have SJWs screaming about how racist and bigoted you were being.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1060615I apologize.

I previously linked to an article explaining why this was the case in the grander context

Completely misses the connection to spiders, Black Widows in particular who are notorious for A having a bite dangerous to humans (shut up Aussies, I hear you giggling and saying "Oi, that's not a spider, this is a spider"), B having jet black "skin", and C eating the males after having sex with them. Yes, there is debate on how common this really is, but it does happen and is widely circulated so clearly was a consideration when the Drow were created.

Damn sexist mother nature.


Wouldn't want to bother with a fact that goes against the general screed though.

Quote from: SHARK;1061878Greetings!

I'm kind of wondering though, why did they pick on the Drow Elves to have a meltdown over? As has been mentioned, they have absolutely nothing to do with African people, aside from also being *Black*

Because they have black skin. Thats it. Thats all. Everything else has been tacked on since.

And if it isnt that then Orcs are problematic because they "represent oppressed black people!"

And tomorrow Mind flayers will be problematic because they "represent the plight of the migrant worker in America!"

And after that the colour Red will be problematic because "it is appropriation of native american culture!"

SJWs are insane people. Anyone who kowtows to appease their demands is insane. Anyone who thinks they are one of them or buddies with them is insane.

Quote from: David Johansen;1061943Nonsense, orcs are stand ins for Native Americans and 19th century genocides.

Never mind that orcs were originally violent invaders with endless numbers and superior immune systems and thus a better stand-in for Europeans.

I think I'm triggered!

Exactly. I've said this many a time. Orcs are the european invaders destroying the land and ousting or better yet totally enslaving or exterminating the natives who happen to be the PCs.

In AD&D the land is dotted in the ruins of human and/or demi-human cities and villages. And those habitations that are found have appallingly low populations sometimes.

And in 5e it is made very clear that periodically orcs sweep through the land to devastate civilization and massacre whole cities. Which may remain fallow for centuries thereafter.

Quote from: Omega;1062130Because they have black skin. Thats it. Thats all. Everything else has been tacked on since.

Yep. And you rarely hear the inverse, that undead (vampires and ghouls and whatnot) have pale skin, but they don't represent whites in a negative manner because... reasons...

Quote from: Omega;1062130Because they have black skin. Thats it. Thats all. Everything else has been tacked on since.

And if it isnt that then Orcs are problematic because they "represent oppressed black people!"

And tomorrow Mind flayers will be problematic because they "represent the plight of the migrant worker in America!"

And after that the colour Red will be problematic because "it is appropriation of native american culture!"

SJWs are insane people. Anyone who kowtows to appease their demands is insane. Anyone who thinks they are one of them or buddies with them is insane.

Greetings!

So true, huh, Omega? You know, after I cool off from being angry with these SJW morons, geesus, I can't help but to laugh maniacally at how impossibly insane they are. I've said it before, but damn, you know, the "Stupid Train" just doesn't stop with these idiots. I know somebody, somewhere, that might be one of our friends--is friends with SJW's. Or married to one. Or related to one. I often wonder, damn, how do they deal with the "Stupid Train" of the SJW's? There's so many topics that the "Stupid Train" touches on and rides through, you know? I imagine trying to be friends with an SJW--the only thing we could ever talk about or discuss would be the weather, or general trivia. Too many other topics would inevitably open the door to the "Stupid Train" and I'd have to school them hard. lol.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1062136Yep. And you rarely hear the inverse, that undead (vampires and ghouls and whatnot) have pale skin, but they don't represent whites in a negative manner because... reasons...

Of course not, I believe the proper response to that is to accuse someone using that example of concern trolling.

It is a very technical dance that they have. :rolleyes:

Quote from: S'mon;1061999Gygax's orcs are initially still  Tolkien's faceless legions of evil, but they began to drift towards more of a "savage races" archetype, perhaps more in keeping with dnd's pulp fantasy roots.

Not really. Orcs in OD&D could be Chaotic or Neutral, and Groan has related in one or two threads that the adventurers could and would recruit orcs and about anything else they could persuade. But right out the gate orcs were not inherently evil to the last drop. Just as not all elves are inherently good. There are evil elves aplenty out there, and so on.