Quote from: nDervish;1061927I've seen plenty of people arguing that orcs (or at least always-evil orcs) are stand-ins for black people (and thus inherently racist), even if they're not "black orcs".

The argument is correct in the main. JRR Tolkien was heavily inspired by his experiences in the trenches of WW1, in which England was invaded by a massive horde of Africans.

Quote from: SHARK;1061878Greetings!

I'm kind of wondering though, why did they pick on the Drow Elves to have a meltdown over? As has been mentioned, they have absolutely nothing to do with African people, aside from also being *Black*

But Orcs can be *Black*. Trolls can also be Black. Fire Giants are also typically Black. Matter of fact, mythologies from around the world have many creatures and spirits of various kinds that are *Black*. European culture has for centuries--long before the stupid trans-Atlantic slave trade with Africans--associated many mythological concepts as being *Black* Hell, in many Asian countries, various colours are considered evil and taboo. I think Black might be one of them.

Who the hell said THEY are somehow the "Authority" to censor and decide what colours and races are appropriate or not? If you tried to do this kind of stupid shit in India or China--or *gasp*--even AFRICA for god's sake, they would laugh at you, and think you were a total moron.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1061921Because they're black. Because there are sexy women. Because a guy's not doing what the sexy women say. Because it's Tuesday. Because there's a panther, which makes them think of Black Panther, which makes them think of black slaves, which makes them think of white supremacy, which makes them think of President Trump, which makes them think of migrants, which makes them think of how the guy not doing what the sexy women say migrated to the surface, which makes them think of his panther, which...

Basically, because it's any given day and they don't realize how great their lives must be if bitching about Drow can be such a huge concern.

Quote from: nDervish;1061927I've seen plenty of people arguing that orcs (or at least always-evil orcs) are stand-ins for black people (and thus inherently racist), even if they're not "black orcs".

Quote from: David Johansen;1061943Nonsense, orcs are stand ins for Native Americans and 19th century genocides.

Never mind that orcs were originally violent invaders with endless numbers and superior immune systems and thus a better stand-in for Europeans.

I think I'm triggered!

I think that it is impossible for [name humanoid race here] not to bear a close resemblance to something unsightly from human history, simply because of the limits of human imagination and psychology. The savage humanoids can only ever be indigenous peoples, colonialist invaders, or members of a multicultural empire, because those are the only things that most human writers can write sapient beings as.

The structure of the game itself requires violence, which is in itself a rather disturbing worldview to for designers to take. Thus, I have suggested multiple times that adventures should offer non-violent solutions where possible. The presence of mental manipulation and communication spells/effects means that you can even negotiate with animals, plants, inanimate objects and so forth.

I don't think we should dismiss such concerns out of hand. Rather, we should take the opportunity to reflect on why the game is as it is and whether that really fits our wants.

The existence of evil races is an inherently sadistic concept, because the only reason you would ever need evil races is to cause suffering. Why would you want to cause suffering? Who knows!

For example, the "problems" with the drow are fairly easy to solve. Their entire appeal is that they are supposed to represent the white man's worst fear and fetish of being dominated socially and sexually by black women, right? Play that up! Seriously, there is loads and loads of romance novels, fanfiction, fanart, etc that spin doctors the whole thing into a positive. I don't know, write an adventure path where the party become slaves to the dark elves and this is presented as a good thing.

QuoteI don't think we should dismiss such concerns out of hand.

Actually, given how aggressive and awful Team Purple Hair has become, I think it's important to dismiss them out of hand.

QuoteFor example, the "problems" with the drow are fairly easy to solve. Their entire appeal is that they are supposed to represent Ed Greenwood's worst fear and fetish of being dominated socially and sexually by black women and also sometimes transforming in to a sexy woman to dominate men, right?

FTFY

Thank you for posting that pirate. It just goes to show how mentally unstable the purple place has become. You think they would be happy that Drow society is matriarchal instead seeing nefarious plots everywhere.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1061957Their entire appeal is that they are supposed to represent the white man's worst fear and fetish of being dominated socially and sexually by black women, right?

Is that why Norse peoples in the Dark Ages told myths about dark elves under the earth - their fear of being dominated socially and sexually by black women?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1061957For example, the "problems" with the drow are fairly easy to solve. Their entire appeal is that they are supposed to represent the white man's worst fear and fetish of being dominated socially and sexually by black women, right? Play that up! Seriously, there is loads and loads of romance novels, fanfiction, fanart, etc that spin doctors the whole thing into a positive. I don't know, write an adventure path where the party become slaves to the dark elves and this is presented as a good thing.

"Fear" yeah, that's it, that's my worst fear, "Oh please don't throw me into that briar patch!"

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1061954The argument is correct in the main. JRR Tolkien was heavily inspired by his experiences in the trenches of WW1, in which England was invaded by a massive horde of Africans.

Ironically, Tolkien's orcs seem inspired much less by the dastardly Hun than by the cockneys in the next trench over.

Quote from: sureshot;1061961Thank you for posting that pirate. It just goes to show how mentally unstable the purple place has become. You think they would be happy that Drow society is matriarchal instead seeing nefarious plots everywhere.

Here is an article explaining why the drow matriarchy is not a real matriarchy: https://zaewen.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/tropebusting-matriarchies-in-gaming-and-sci-fifantasy/

Not everybody who disagrees with you is a lunatic. I literally read erotica that depicted more realistic matriarchies.

Quote from: Haffrung;1061963Is that why Norse peoples in the Dark Ages told myths about dark elves under the earth - their fear of being dominated socially and sexually by black women?

Technically speaking, dark elves and dwarves were not really distinguished in Norse myth. It is not clear if the "dark" part ever referred to their skin color, either, since it could easily refer to their homeland being shrouded in darkness.

Quote from: S'mon;1061987Ironically, Tolkien's orcs seem inspired much less by the dastardly Hun than by the cockneys in the next trench over.

I would think that actually reinforces the idea that orcs are a metaphor for racist propaganda. Whoever is writing about them subconsciously attributes them with traits from a disliked ethnic group. Or romanticizes them like the noble savage myth. In essence, orcs are generally written as something to be despised or aspired to. Not as people with free will.

Quote from: Haffrung;1061963Is that why Norse peoples in the Dark Ages told myths about dark elves under the earth - their fear of being dominated socially and sexually by black women?

Also their memories of WW1.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1061992Here is an article explaining why the drow matriarchy is not a real matriarchy: https://zaewen.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/tropebusting-matriarchies-in-gaming-and-sci-fifantasy/
I would think that actually reinforces the idea that orcs are a metaphor for racist propaganda. Whoever is writing about them subconsciously attributes them with traits from a disliked ethnic group.

Probably don't want to go down that road if you want to stay on Team Goodperson, because if you can't hate ethnic subgroups in your country who are the same race as you, but diverge significantly from you in terms of regional dialect, religion, moral norms, education, politics, family structure, and diet, pretty much 95% of SJW fantasies have to be thrown out.

So it's settled. The orcs represent black people. Just like the Drow. And the Fire Giants. And the night hags. And the duergar. And the svorfnobberlings or whatever. And the xvarts. Gibberlings, too? IDK, reading the Monster Manual while woke is tough.

The elves represent the English (collapsed empire completely overrun by a far more aggressive, mercantile people, mentally living in a past where they were #1, extremly poor manufacturing productivity).

The dwarves represent the Finns (hardy, simple, live in the cold, women have beards).

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1061992I would think that actually reinforces the idea that orcs are a metaphor for racist propaganda. Whoever is writing about them subconsciously attributes them with traits from a disliked ethnic group. Or romanticizes them like the noble savage myth. In essence, orcs are generally written as something to be despised or aspired to. Not as people with free will.

Gygax's orcs are initially still  Tolkien's faceless legions of evil, but they began to drift towards more of a "savage races" archetype, perhaps more in keeping with dnd's pulp fantasy roots. By 3e the transition was complete. You could call it a colonialist mentality if you like. But they were not given attributes of any real world human group, even though they took on the place of Red Indians in  cowboy pulps, Frazetta Apemen in Conanesque pulps, and so on.

In British games like Warhammer, orcs stayed cockneys, true to their classist roots in Tolkien.

Quote from: S'mon;1061999Gygax's orcs are initially still  Tolkien's faceless legions of evil, but they began to drift towards more of a "savage races" archetype, perhaps more in keeping with dnd's pulp fantasy roots. By 3e the transition was complete. You could call it a colonialist mentality if you like. But they were not given attributes of any real world human group, even though they took on the place of Red Indians in  cowboy pulps, Frazetta Apemen in Conanesque pulps, and so on.

In British games like Warhammer, orcs stayed cockneys, true to their classist roots in Tolkien.

WF Orks are Soccer Hooligans.  Absolutely funny until they happen to you.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1062007WF Orks are Soccer Hooligans.  Absolutely funny until they happen to you.

Millwall soccer hooligans maybe. Not Chelsea!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1061992Here is an article explaining why the drow matriarchy is not a real matriarchy: https://zaewen.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/tropebusting-matriarchies-in-gaming-and-sci-fifantasy/

So much bad rationalizations in that article. But I can't help going for the low hanging fruit...

The Drow matriarchy isn't a real matriarchy because Drow aren't real!

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1062013So much bad rationalizations in that article. But I can't help going for the low hanging fruit...

The Drow matriarchy isn't a real matriarchy because Drow aren't real!

Greetings!

You know, Ratman, your comments here reminded me with a good laugh, but also the irony--a long time ago, when I used to debate eager young liberals at my university, after some time, I lamented the fact that these people were *not* interested in facts, evidence, and truth. Time and time again, whether the debate was about women in combat, guns, foreign policy, biology, crime policy, social welfare policy--no matter how many facts were presented, none of it ultimately mattered. The liberals would always resort to a conclusive dismissal of your argument based on emotion and ideology--not facts, or truth. That soon led me to ultimately conclude that liberals, and liberalism--is really a kind of mental disease, a psychological disease of the mind that seems to totally *unhinge* them from any kind of reality. They are entirely incapable of comprehending reality in any meaningful way. Today's SJW's are merely the most recent "flavour of the month" incarnation of these people. Whether they go by the name of "Social Progressives", "Progressives", "Liberals", or "SJW's"--they are all, whether they realise it or not--they are all part of the post-modernist, Marxist soup. My buddies in the Marines would simply dismiss them "They're all just a bunch of fucking Communists!".

I say all of that as a context for seeing the depth of your comment. "The Drow are not real!"--even in this, our RPG hobby, the SJW's break with reality becomes frighteningly all too clear.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK