Quote from: HappyDaze;1065358Maybe the issue is that all other elf groups are considered "white" by default. Are there any D&D setting that show "non-Caucasian" members of non-Drow elf groups? Any brown-skinned wood elves or sallow-skinned high elves in the mainstream settings?

My favorite D&D setting (Midnight) has brown-skinned wood elves, black-skinned jungle elves, pale-skinned snow elves, and really tan sea elves. And I know there are others like that out there. I've read multiple settings that use brown-skinned elves as the baseline, but not as much in the few D&D settings I know.

There's also Castlemourn, where the elves have extremely pale, almost blue-white skin that constantly emits a pale glow... and the vast majority of them are xenophobes who shoot the other races on sight if they try to enter their forest.

For the 80's era, I assumed every group had one of every ethnicity, and someone in a wheelchair.

Quote from: jhkim;1065362In general, over the past 20-30 years or so, there has been growing two-sided partisanship in the U.S. - now fed particularly by social media and click-bait. Regarding SJW, there are two distinct behaviors here:

1) Calling anyone who disagrees with you a nazi
2) Frequently pushing for social justice causes including LGBT rights, sexism, racism, etc.

There is plenty of overlap between these two, but these are distinct behaviors. The same goes for conservatives.

Really? But who is really pushing for all of this in gaming and pop-culture? What kind of "rights" are LGBT, women, POC being denied in pop-culture? Expression? Representation? The overlap you're speaking of is not the non-outliers to these beliefs overtly forcing people to play a certain way. It's the outliers demanding their perspectives be conflated to the same level of engagement as the non-outliers. There is a reason why that won't work - the same reason why those perspectives *are* outliers. The SJW crowd misunderstand "acceptance" and "engagement" as being one and the same. They're not. If you want SJW themed games/movies/comics/etc: make them. Make them good. If it's good - people will consume them.

Quote from: jhkim;1065362This is not my position, which you have ignored. I would again point out that it's not just that there happens to be an evil matriarchy. It's how the drow matriarchy is not just the only matriarchy in the core game, but also the most prominent example of sexism of any sort in the core game. Orcs are noted as being "mostly patriarchal" but without specifying to what degree there is sexism.

I wasn't speaking to you or about you specifically. But I'm happy to address these things: why do these things honestly matter? Do you have some kind of protractor that measures the degree of "problemtization" in your games to give "fair warning". What degree is too much sexualization? I have prostitutes, slave-trade, human-sacrifice, cannibalism, orgies, genocide and other atrocities at different points in my games where necessary. But I also have great heroism - with the attempts to deal with all of this stuff (cept maybe the occasional orgy). The point being - run your games as you will. But for the purposes of moralizing on established standards - it's probably a dumb idea for a game that is make-believe.

Quote from: jhkim;1065362As I've said, I think the drow would be fine if there were a mix of different matriarchies and patriarchies, evil and good. But it stands out like a sore thumb if sexism against male drow is the most prominent example of sexism in the game.

You *do* realize that Drow society at least as protrayed in the Realms DOES have examples of other other forms of government other than Lolthian Matriarchies. They're rare, but they do exist. Again - what *IS* the problem with having antagonists be sexist/homophobic/racist/genocidal/demon-worshipping/cannibalistic? Because you feel it hurts your sensibilities over the large swathes of people likewise engaged in make-believe games that treat it exactly as it is? A game. And those problematic things as elements of the game to give challenge? Maybe this TTRPG thing is not for those people? (or maybe you if that includes you.)

Quote from: jhkim;1065362I wonder about D&D fiction as well. For those who have read D&D fiction - how much does sexism against women feature? Or is Drizz't the most prominent example of sexism in the fiction as well?

What do you wonder about? If it makes men sexist?  Maybe. Maybe there are Satanic messages in my Slayer vinyl too.

And wait... Drizz't is sexist? (dang man... I need some examples now LOL)

Quote from: jhkim;1065362I wonder about D&D fiction as well. For those who have read D&D fiction - how much does sexism against women feature? Or is Drizz't the most prominent example of sexism in the fiction as well?

Sexism in general does not have a large role in Forgotten Realms; I can't speak to many of the other settings that had books written about them. You certainly see some of it with savage races like orcs, and it crops up from time to time with barbarians and the like. I recall that Catti-Brie, one of Drizzt's companions and eventually his lover, occasionally had to deal with it when men would look down on her and underestimate her skills as a warrior. The stuff with Drizzt is simply the most prominent example of sexism because he's by far the most popular character. If you skip over the origin story, though, you don't really see much sexism directed his way. Instead it's very much a story about him trying to overcome the surface peoples' hatred of drow and finding a place a fit in. Drizzt doesn't worry so much about sexism. It's racism he has to deal with, and that's something Faerun has plenty of.

As far as those unhappy with the drow go, here's an easy fix: Eilistraee came out on top during the War of the Spider Queen and the drow are redeemed. Boom, problem solved. You can work out the details from there, but Eilistraee worship has replaced that of Lolth for the vast majority of drow. Lolth was the one who was eventually reborn, and now it's her followers who are the splinter group trying to influence the majority of drow society. Or leave her dead and do something else, whatever works best for you.

Greetings!

You know, I personally think the whole base motivation of critique is weak, mewling pathos by a bunch of stuffed-animal clutching social freaks. Why MUST there be all of this extra-racial and extra-sexual "representation" of the Elves, and Drow Elves specifically in the game? And in the various races in general?

Note: Yes, I personally enjoy and applaud creativity and making different races be different colours, have different cultures, mixing in different religious philosophy and political systems, and so on--all of that is fine, for the purposes of creativity and fun.

What I do not enjoy is this deep-seated, idealogically-driven NEED to include such--are harass, judge, and seek to critique and shame others that do not happen to embrace the particular racial or sexual flavour of the day. The arrogant, self-righteous mantle of looking down upon all of the "unwashed masses" for "Doing it wrong."

That is the real problem, JHKIM, and you know it. All of this other stuff--this psuedo-intellectual posturing of moral superiority and judgement is merely a pathetic attempt by SJW's to gain control over the hobby, and to exersize influence and control over not only how people *play* the game--but also how people *think* about the game.

Tenbones, brother, you're zeroing in on it precisely--what IS the problem with having black coloured, evil, matriarchal Drow Elves--that incidentally, as you mentioned, engage in a whole buffet table of horrible sins.

I specifically point out the politically ideologically driven nonsense for exactly what it is. Why is the Drow being black, sexist, and homophobic such horrifying sins? They aren't really. They are engaged in demon-worshipping, human-sacrifice, cannibalism, genocide, slavery, rape and horrific sadism against everything they can get their hands on. On a moral plane of wickedness and being "problematic" I would suggest that these moral failings and moral sins are on a higher ranking of importance and significance than being black coloured, sexist and homophobic. Interesting how the SJW's focus on THOSE THREE SINS as making the Drow Elves "problematic"--and not the contstant, daily and zealous cultural embrace of far more horrible moral sins. That's also a tell in how we know this is all just ideological stuffed-animal clutching, and not a deep philosophical analytical critique. The Drow Elves have deep, horrific cultural attributes that, from a truly moral view, are far more disturbing than sexism, homophobia, and being black coloured. Then, of course, all of the psuedo-moralistic outrage has to be set into the backdrop of context that all of the Drow cultural attributes exist, as Tenbones pointed out--for the purposes of conflict in a game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Why... one would almost think the Drow are problematic because in-game they're EVIL and need to be dealt with? (or wisely avoided until you're 10th lvl)

/shock

Quote from: tenbones;1065371The SJW crowd misunderstand "acceptance" and "engagement" as being one and the same. They're not. If you want SJW themed games/movies/comics/etc: make them. Make them good. If it's good - people will consume them.

Generally speaking, I agree here. If people want more liberal games, I would advise they spend their effort making and promoting liberal games as opposed to complaining loudly about how all the game publishers are too conservative. Conversely, if people want more conservative games, I would advise they spend their effort making and promoting conservative games. The issue I have is that when people make SJW-themed games, they are called "SJWs" just the same as if they were spending their time complaining about conservative games. For example, there's a "patronizing garbage" thread now where people here are complaining about authors making SJW-themed games. For example, in a recent post was complaining about in-game background for a Fate setting book -

https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?39667-Angry-at-patronizing-garbage-in-my-game-books&p=1065289&viewfull=1#post1065289

My position is that there should be both conservative-themed games and liberal-themed games, as well as various other political or non-politically themed games. Also, mainstream politics in a game shouldn't warrant outrage and/or boycott.

Quote from: tenbones;1065371You *do* realize that Drow society at least as protrayed in the Realms DOES have examples of other other forms of government other than Lolthian Matriarchies. They're rare, but they do exist. Again - what *IS* the problem with having antagonists be sexist/homophobic/racist/genocidal/demon-worshipping/cannibalistic? Because you feel it hurts your sensibilities over the large swathes of people likewise engaged in make-believe games that treat it exactly as it is? A game. And those problematic things as elements of the game to give challenge? Maybe this TTRPG thing is not for those people? (or maybe you if that includes you.)

tenbones, I've posted about this several times, so I feel like you are either failing to read me or deliberately ignoring what I say.  I don't know all of the drow societies in the Realms - but then neither do most D&D players. When I refer to the core game, I mean the Player's Handbook + Dungeon Master's Guide + Monster Manual. As of 5th edition in those books, the only explicit sexism described for any society is sexism against male drow. For a medieval-themed game, I think that's fricking weird. I would expect that there should at least be represented having historical-type sexism against women, or if they're going to edit out sexism against women, then they should also edit out sexism against men.

I have no problem with any of the following:

1) Having historical sexism be the rule, with women as second-class citizens in most societies. I've played plenty of historical games, and there are some potential pitfalls that can make the game not fun for female players - but they are surmountable.

2) Having sexism be mostly edited out of the fantasy world, but leaving in a few examples of it - with a mix including good patriarchy, good matriarchy, evil patriarchy, evil matriarchy. This would be what I would think normal for D&D.

3) Leave sexism out of the core books as something to be introduced by GMs as they see fit.

Any of these are fine. But featuring sexism that most prominently is a thing that men suffer from? That seems more like something for an odd fantasy world of reversals, not for core D&D.

Quote from: tenbones;1065371And wait... Drizz't is sexist? (dang man... I need some examples now LOL)

When I say the Drizz't is an example of sexism, I mean that in the books about him, I understand that he is discriminated against by sexist drow society. This is a theme in those boosk. A parallel to this would be the Tortall books by Tamora Pierce - where a number of the series focus on women struggling against the sexism of the patriarchal fantasy society (like the Alanna books or the Protector of the Small books). I was curious if there are examples in D&D novels where sexism against women is portrayed.

Quote from: jhkim;1065383Any of these are fine. But featuring sexism that most prominently is a thing that men suffer from? That seems more like something for an odd fantasy world of reversals, not for core D&D.

Why?

Quote from: jhkimAny of these are fine. But featuring sexism that most prominently is a thing that men suffer from? That seems more like something for an odd fantasy world of reversals, not for core D&D.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1065385Why?

Because sexism against women is a prominent part of the history and the fiction that D&D is inspired by, and sexism against men is not. Tolkien featured Eowyn struggling against her society's role for her. R.E. Howard featured Red Sonja as a woman warrior against type in a man's world. They and others portrayed a world that wasn't exactly historical medieval, but still had key features of it - including male leadership and dominance. Look through the list of inspirational works and there will be tons more examples of women struggling against society's restrictions. To have that nowhere in the world and have men be the more oppressed gender just doesn't fit the genre, in my opinion.

Quote from: jhkim;1065395Because sexism against women is a prominent part of the history and the fiction that D&D is inspired by, and sexism against men is not. Tolkien featured Eowyn struggling against her society's role for her. R.E. Howard featured Red Sonja as a woman warrior against type in a man's world. They and others portrayed a world that wasn't exactly historical medieval, but still had key features of it - including male leadership and dominance. Look through the list of inspirational works and there will be tons more examples of women struggling against society's restrictions. To have that nowhere in the world and have men be the more oppressed gender just doesn't fit the genre, in my opinion.

Interesting. Do you think D&D should be sexist towards women to properly emulate the tropes that inspired it?

Quote from: jhkim;1065395Because sexism against women is a prominent part of the history and the fiction that D&D is inspired by, and sexism against men is not. Tolkien featured Eowyn struggling against her society's role for her. R.E. Howard featured Red Sonja as a woman warrior against type in a man's world. They and others portrayed a world that wasn't exactly historical medieval, but still had key features of it - including male leadership and dominance. Look through the list of inspirational works and there will be tons more examples of women struggling against society's restrictions. To have that nowhere in the world and have men be the more oppressed gender just doesn't fit the genre, in my opinion.

Greetings!

Hey JHKIM. You made me think of the Amazons. According to the ancient Greeks, the Amazons oppressed men. It certainly seems to me that the Drow Elves were inspired by the habits of spiders and Amazon women, with a bit of Elven tropes and Bondage tropes mixed in--walaa--you have Drow Elves. Make them glossy black in colour, reflecting the dark/light dichotomy of at least European mythology, and make them live deep underground--also consistent with European mythology that Underground=dark, evil, mysterious and terrifying.

Popular history/culture wise, everyone is familiar with sexism towards women being historical. So hey--lets play that up against the male Drow even more for added *alien* effect. That will surely make the Drow culture fun and weird. I can see the reasoning quite clearly.

All of the elements of the Drow seem well-sourced and blended for the purposes of fun. I'm still boggled by what or how the Drow are viewed as being somehow "problematic" in any legitimate sense. If someone really wanted something to be morally triggered by, it seems like oh, I don't know--the Aboleth, the Mind Flayers and the Beholders would qualify far better for moral outrage and stuffed-animal clutching. Those three races are existentially and morally horrifying in every way imaginable. And yet--all the weeping and gnashing of teeth is about the Drow.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1065375Yes, I personally enjoy and applaud creativity and making different races be different colours, have different cultures, mixing in different religious philosophy and political systems, and so on--all of that is fine, for the purposes of creativity and fun.

What I do not enjoy is this deep-seated, idealogically-driven NEED to include such--are harass, judge, and seek to critique and shame others that do not happen to embrace the particular racial or sexual flavour of the day. The arrogant, self-righteous mantle of looking down upon all of the "unwashed masses" for "Doing it wrong."

That is the real problem, JHKIM, and you know it. All of this other stuff--this psuedo-intellectual posturing of moral superiority and judgement is merely a pathetic attempt by SJW's to gain control over the hobby, and to exersize influence and control over not only how people *play* the game--but also how people *think* about the game.

I am totally in agreement against harassing games of opposing politics. Within my more liberal social forums, I also clash with liberal friends for promoting free speech and the open marketplace of ideas. I'm frequently in the position of defending D&D against criticism, and am very much against arrogant elitism. I'm running D&D myself, and have some critiques of various parts of it, but nothing huge. It's a good game.

I do think that there is a point about the drow - and it's worth discussing without descending into bitch-fests and name-calling.


As for posturing judgement, I agree that is a problem among liberals - and I have often defended D&D to such. On the other hand, there are a lot of posters here who are perfectly willing to bring up some liberal-themed game and start bitching about it for how "woke" it is and start into name-calling and judgement about it. When I first joined this site ages ago, Pundit was in the midst of numerous tirades against the Blue Rose RPG for it's left-leaning content. I'd say it's fine to critique an RPG, but it should be open for debate and not mindless name-calling - and that should go for left-leaning, right-leaning, and other content.

Quote from: SHARK;1065398Hey JHKIM. You made me think of the Amazons. According to the ancient Greeks, the Amazons oppressed men. It certainly seems to me that the Drow Elves were inspired by the habits of spiders and Amazon women, with a bit of Elven tropes and Bondage tropes mixed in--walaa--you have Drow Elves. Make them glossy black in colour, reflecting the dark/light dichotomy of at least European mythology, and make them live deep underground--also consistent with European mythology that Underground=dark, evil, mysterious and terrifying.

First of all, in all my reading of Amazon myths, they didn't have any men. Any male babies were given away, and men were mated with from neighboring tribes as purely temporary liaisons. But for arguments sake, sure, let's suppose there were male Amazons who were oppressed.

Say there was an ancient Greece RPG - and it portrayed that normal Greek society with no mention of any sexism against women, but then in the entry on Amazons featured about how sexist they were and the men are oppressed in their society. I would say that this goes against both history and Greek myth. The whole point of the Amazons is that they are weird and the opposite of normal society for women to be warriors this way.

Quote from: jhkim;1065383As of 5th edition in those books, the only explicit sexism described for any society is sexism against male drow. For a medieval-themed game, I think that's fricking weird. I would expect that there should at least be represented having historical-type sexism against women, or if they're going to edit out sexism against women, then they should also edit out sexism against men.

The reason there is no strong, obvious depictions of sexism against women in most forms of modern fiction is because it inevitably results in a rage-mob screaming about all the sexism, thus the only ALLOWABLE depictions of sexism are against men, which results in attack threads like this. Kafka-trap, where the only solution is to make settings that are so abysmally bland and perfect that no one would ever want to play in them.

Quote1) Having historical sexism be the rule, with women as second-class citizens in most societies. I've played plenty of historical games, and there are some potential pitfalls that can make the game not fun for female players - but they are surmountable.

That hasn't been allowable in western society for pretty much thirty odd years now.

Quote3) Leave sexism out of the core books as something to be introduced by GMs as they see fit.

That is not a solution, as it pretty much eliminates world books.  If the only way "problematic" content is allowed is via GM introduction, then any and all settings will be perforce reduced to indistinguisable pap, since EVERYTHING is political these days and EVERYTHING is potentially problematic.  Your solution is to try to cater to screaming Outrage Junkies, who have demonstrated time and again that they will never be satisfied.  The purpose is not to spare the feelings of the Drow who are being subject to Sexism, but to demonstrate social power via bullying.

QuoteAny of these are fine. But featuring sexism that most prominently is a thing that men suffer from? That seems more like something for an odd fantasy world of reversals, not for core D&D.

Again, because it bears repeating: No game in at least thirty years... pretty much no form of modern media... has been allowed to depict sexism against women in any way unless it is meant to protest said sexism.   THAT, and that alone, is the reason you have this one-sided case where the only obvious sexism is against men.

Drow are homophobic?

I agree that the lack of patriarchies in D&D is due to political correctness issues.