Quote from: YamoOn the plus side, more affordable Flash animation coupled with great writing has recently been allowing for brilliant stuff like Venture Brothers and Metalocalypse, which trump anything coming out of Japan for me.

While I love this stuff, it still doesn't do serious action like, say, Samurai Champloo or what have you. Parody's great, but... does everything have to be parody? Everything coming out of America sure as hell is. Bring me something like Batman. That show kicked ass in ways even anime can't touch.

I do watch a lot of animation these days -- much more than "grown up" TV. That's not entirely by choice, and thankfully there's not a lot of anime.

When I was a kid, I really liked Robotech and Battle of the Planets.  There was a lot of other Japanimation stuff (Belle and Sebastian, Fables of the Green Forest, etc) that was not really noteworthy to me at the time.  I watched it, but I'd watch any cartoons.  Kids, huh?

Today there are still some good imports (Akira, Vampire Hunter D), and some stuff that looks pretty generic (Dragonball Z) -- but also a lot of stuff that just looks BAD.  Really low frame rates, lots of recycled animation loops, and since it looks so generic it lacks the charm of other corner-cutting animation like Rocket Robinhood. They really seem to be scraping the import animation barrel now...

Good animation is good animation regardless of where it's from.  Anime has a strike against it for me because I'm *so* tired of seeing that style of artwork.  Shows with a distinctive style (Samurai Jack, Invader Zim) are more likely to get my attention.

Quote from: RPGPunditFor my part, I've already said that if RPGs want to HAVE a future, they have to simplify product and cheapen prices, to try to appeal to the kids.

Well, ultimately, I don't think that appealing to kids (few of whom have their own money, but rely on mom and dad for purchases and/or approval for purchases) isn't the best way to go. Other than that, I do agree that the products should aim for less complexity and lower prices (as that will make them accessible to most everybody, including children).

The current climbing retail prices for many RPGs has arguably already had a negative impact in that it's alienated many casual gamers by making RPGs a specialist hobby that requires a not insignificant cash investment. It was already a niche hooby, but at least it was affordable -- as I've learned in the past two years, this isn't necessarily the case anymore.

As for rules complexity, there's certainly a sizeable market for simple games, as C&C has demonstrated (if there weren't, I don't think that C&C could have been as poorly managed as it has been and still exist). Less complex rules means that a game is easier to play and, thus, easuer to learn and teach. It makes the product more accessible, which should (in theory) ensure wider circulation, so long as it is promoted well.

QuoteI think Anime is going to be a major influence in the future, I think the next really big RPG is going to be connected to anime/manga in some form

I think that this would have been more true five years ago. Currently, Japanese animation and games that carry exploit themes common to such animation (e.g., Pokemon and Yugio) are no longer the pop culture phenomena that they were five years ago. I think that the best window of opportunity for truly hot anime-inspired RPGs has passed (and I think that only Exalted actually mangaed to capitalize on it in the longterm).

Instead, I currently see two consumer desires becoming more prevalent -- simple rules and "old school" sensibilities. So long as both of these desires continue to be expressed openly and games that cater to them are successful, that's where I see the Next Big Thing coming from. Note that development of FRUP has not resumed without reason

Quote from: RPGPunditOk, we've seen a lot of idiots commenting about what they think the "future" of RPGs are, seriously trying to make the claim that the next big boom is going to RPGs where the players play Housewives or play RPGs about dinner parties, or play Joyce De Witt and Meredith Baxter-Birney in a touching RPG-version of the movie of the week, or play will go nuts at the chance to play Neuman or Urkel.

So what do those of us who aren't clinically insane or mentally retarded think about the future trends in RPGs?

Well, I do think there will be an increasing number of niche products in the RPG market.

The types of products you're talking about aren't for me, but long tail economics are for real. Enough people want products like Breaking the Ice and Shooting the Moon that those products will still be made and, if made correctly, can be pretty profitable.

You have to realize that a product doesn't need to appeal to a GURPs or Hero size market, or even a D&D-size market to be a success.

QuoteFor my part, I've already said that if RPGs want to HAVE a future, they have to simplify product and cheapen prices, to try to appeal to the kids.  And likewise, if the kids get into RPGs these days, the influences they will bring with them will be different.  Less Robert E. Howard and more Hayao Miyazaki.

Anime, fantasy, supers, westerns, pulp, romance... you name it I believe it has a future.

Of course fantasy will likely continue to be the big market, but all sorts of genres can succeed.

QuoteI think Anime is going to be a major influence in the future, I think the next really big RPG is going to be connected to anime/manga in some form (though not BeSM, we aren't talking "the Anime RPG", we're talking about RPGs influenced by themes from Anime), and I also think that the next version of D&D is going to have much more Anime influence.  Frankly, I think D&D seriously missed the boat with all the "dungeonpunk" nonsense this time around. If D&D had looked more like Lodoss Wars or Final Fantasy, it would have captured far many more young players, even if it might have lost some of the old geezers who don't like anime because its "childish".

I think Eberron is tapping some of the Final Fantasy vibe already.

QuoteI get the feeling that sooner or later, someone's going to smarten up to that.

RPGPundit

Again, I think Eberron is a step in that direction but you overstate your case. A game like "Don't Rest Your Head" has a definite place in the market. You have to realize that just because a product is a small niche that doesn't appeal to the bulk of gamers is not the same thing as a successful product.

I think RPGs are going to continue to fracture into micro-markets.

Hell, you could argue RPGs already *ARE* a micro-market. Let's face it, gaming will never be the phenomenon it was in the 70's. Why? Because gaming consoles and computers increasingly offer what tabletop RPGs do.

If I want to dungeon delve, to kill things and take their stuff, there is an increasing array of games that can provide that experience on the console and the computer.

So I think electronic gaming is going to do to tabletop RPGs what tabletop RPGs did to wargaming.

This doesn't mean tabletop RPGs will go away anymore than wargames went away.

It does mean that an already small market will divide into many small "boutique" operations that serve a very small slice of the fanbase that is very unlikely to resemble anything like the "mainstream" gaming market of a D&D.

I mean, it's hard to argue Call of Cthulhu hasn't been a very successful game for decades. But would you call it mainstream?

I think we're going to see a lot more of that, taken to an even greater extreme in the future.

Chuck

Quote from: YamoAww. That's so inexplicably personal that it baffled me for a second. I didn't stumble over your sensitive otaku fandom loyalties, did I?

Tell you what: I'll promise not to say anymore bad things about Japanese children's cartoons if you promise to never mention the details of your life-sized Sakura pillow with the strategically-placed hole. Deal?

I have no words to describe just how utterly clueless you are in this post.  

But hey, enjoy your glorified Newgrounds pap.  Whatever floats your aged and rickety boat.

Quote from: jdrakehWell, ultimately, I don't think that appealing to kids (few of whom have their own money, but rely on mom and dad for purchases and/or approval for purchases) isn't the best way to go. Other than that, I do agree that the products should aim for less complexity and lower prices (as that will make them accessible to most everybody, including children).

Eh. If you get kids to WANT your product, they will find a way to get it. How many players of Grand Theft Auto and Saints Row would you say are below the recommended ages?

Saint's Row and Dead Rising costs $60 each. I don't think cost is the issue.

Please give me a primer on current North American-culture, because I don´t know what you guys are talking about:

Why in nine hells has the state of the animation and comic industry anything to do with RPGs?

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckEh. If you get kids to WANT your product, they will find a way to get it. How many players of Grand Theft Auto and Saints Row would you say are below the recommended ages?

How many kids with those games do you knwo whose parents don't have an interest in them, too? Personally, I can't think of any

QuoteSaint's Row and Dead Rising costs $60 each. I don't think cost is the issue.

And? You're comparing apples to oranges.

For starters, video games have always been luxury items, while RPG books haven't. From the time that the Atari 2600 was released, game consoles have been costly items, with games being similarly expensive. Not everybody could afford to run out and buy a micro PC back in 1982, much as not everybody can afford to run out and buy an X-Box 360 today.

RPGs, on the other hand, were once priced on par with paperback novels or hardcover novels at the high end. If you could scrape together the money for a book, you could buy a roleplaying game. Now RPGs often retail for $15-$30 more than those hardcover novels do. Oddly, the price of hardcover novels has only risen by a few dolllars over the past few decades. This isn't lost on consumers.

The inflation in video game prices has been relatively minor when compared to that of RPG books. Today, a video game typically costs $60-$70, while in 1995 a video game typically cost. . . about $50-60. Compare this to the cost of a roleplaying core book that, today, typically costs about $40-$50, while in 1995, $25 was the high end of the cost spectrum and many core books could be had for less than a $20 bill. This also isn't lost on consumers.

Most importantly, video game production values have grown in leaps and bounds, and (more importantly, perhaps) that growth is immediately visible -- compare Pong to Doom 3. In the eyes of many consumers, this level of highly visible growth in quality justifies the inflation that video game prices have seen over the years. The growth is visible, therefore the typcial consumer has no problem paying for it. So what about RPGs?

Well, after 30+ years. . . RPGs are still books. And, for the most part, they still provide the same experience that they did 30 years ago, as well. More of them might have glossy covers, full color art, or hardcovers, but for many consumers, the growth in production values isn't as visible or as vast as that in the video game industry -- and, thus, many consumers have a hard time paying more money for what is essentially the same product that they paid $20 for less than a decade ago (albeit with flashier art or a hardcover).

Finally, you have the perceived value issue. For many people, a book that they have to pour considerable time and effort into before they can play a game with it doesn't provide the same value that being able to press a button and play a game immediately does.

Saying "People will pay $60 for a video game, therefore they'll pay $60 for a book" is largely wishful thnking that ignores some very real and very important consumer purchasing trends and market history. This kind of thinking poses the very real risk of pricing pencil and paper RPGs out of existence, I fear.

What RPG publishers need to be focusing on is why the vast majority of consumers will shell out $60 for a video game and, then, try to match the value that consumers perceive. I do not mean "make tabletop RPGs play more like video games" -- this is arguably the most least work-intensive approach to the problem, but it will also be the least effectvie as a result.

I assure you that consumers don't shell out crazy money for $60 video games simply because they exist. And they won't buy the hell out of $60 RPG simply because it's printed, either.

Quote from: SettembriniPlease give me a primer on current North American-culture, because I don´t know what you guys are talking about:

Why in nine hells has the state of the animation and comic industry anything to do with RPGs?

They're saying that in future more rpgs will have anime and comic stuff in them.

Sounds like wishful thinking to me, but hey, who the fuck knows. Looking back at predictions of the future, I'm well-overdue for my flying car, the 25-hour work week for all, and universal peace and prosperity.

QuoteThey're saying that in future more rpgs will have anime and comic stuff in them.

Hmmm. But they aren´t related in any way, no?

They are not technically related to each-other, say for example the way baseball and baseball cards are, or movies and action figures for the movies, or cars and drag racing.

But many American and Australian geeks who are interested in one will be interested in the other. There are certain geeky hobbies which go together in people, computer games (not "roleplaying" computer games, but Command & Conquer, Halo, etc), comic books, anime, action figures, models and miniatures, and rpgs.

That's why there are one or two anime or comic book rpgs - BESM, Weapons of the Gods, Panty Explosion, etc - and also why much of the art in American rpgs looks like it does, for example the Soceror and Savant cover for Exalted; the artists are influenced by anime, and the companies are trying to attract the anime audience. "Hey, here are people who spend hundreds of dollars on books just to have the books, even though they'll read them once and forget them, that's a good market for us to have, why market just to the guys who play, let's aim for the collectors, too."

So it's not that the things themselves are similar, rather that the people who like one often like the other, so the rpg companies will commonly try to sell to them, creating or altering their products to fit.

That's why these guys think that there'll be more anime-inspired rpgs in time to come.

Me? I think anime is silly. But often geeks will like both rpgs and anime.

Thanks for the insight. The biggest LGS in Berlin used to have a co-operation with a action-figure/comic/movie paraphernalia store. They were upstairs, and the RPGs were downstairs.
The actuall customer crossover was abysmal. Interestingly, the comicstore folded, and the Gaming Store took over the rooms.

As only the US is large enough a market to produce anything decent for, I guess I have to live with that.

Don´t like comics though. Actually, I dislike them.

At the game fair in Essen, they used to have a comic fair at the same time upstairs. They have shrunk to several rows of booths. I guess comics are in decline here.

Here in Australia, we've had the opposite of your experience.

Melbourne and Sydney used to each have about 12 rpg stores. From 1985-2005, about 6 of them just disappeared. Of the remaining 6, all of them diversified into comic books, movie paraphenalia (figures, videos, t-shirts, etc), and 3 of them dropped the rpg lines and stayed with the other stuff. The successful remaining game stores have also wargames, board games and puzzles, and collectible card games.

In general, the game stores are very badly run. The staff sit around idly, and when questioned, rarely know much about the stock, what's new, what's on the shelves, etc. They usually have one or two guys very keen on the card games who know all about them; the rpgs are the neglected stepchild of the stores. In the past decade, gamers have moved on to online stores a lot. If you're going to have no staff member who can tell you anything, then you may as well try to get it cheaper online.

So Melbourne and Sydney, cities of 4 million or more people, have only two or three dedicated game stores each. Game books are to be found tucked away in corners of many book and (other) game stores, though.

On the other hand, if you like anime and comics, you have several stores to choose from. The difference is not how many customers there are, there are many gamers who'd love to be spending money on stuff, but rather that the staff in the anime/comic stores love what they're selling, and know all about it.

Unfortunately, as customers we can kill off bad stores, but we cannot create good stores. I have a friend who ran a game store up in Queensland, and did it very well. He's recently returned to Melbourne, and I've been trying to persuade him to open another store here, but he wants to have a reliable income and no stress, so isn't keen on starting a new business.  

Anyway, that's anime and comics - they get better staff in the stores, so they sell better, which makes the rpg companies decide to make their rpgs more anime/comic-like, and... :mad:

I don't want to pay a fuckin' cartoon!

Quote from: JimBobOzThat's why there are one or two anime or comic book rpgs - BESM, Weapons of the Gods, Panty Explosion, etc - and also why much of the art in American rpgs looks like it does, for example the Soceror and Savant cover for Exalted; the artists are influenced by anime, and the companies are trying to attract the anime audience.

Or influenced by manhwa, in some cases: if memory serves, that cover is by Hyung-tae Kim.

Quote from: SettembriniHmmm. But they aren´t related in any way, no?

In America it's another way to keep a hobby store around, and with several types of items. My FLGS is as much a comic/collectible/video/console store as it is a RPG store and that's a major reason it's still around after over a decade. And I live within a 30-45 minute drive from the 2nd or 3rd largest RPG convention, Origins.

Many of the same people work on manga, anime, and console games (including CRPGs) and usually a title has multiple forms*: manga, anime, OVA (direct to video), games, trinkets, music dramas, candy, model kits, figures, and other stuff that fans will buy. Even if a console game or CRPG has no anime or manga (available in the US) the look and themes may be similar to other anime and manga. So there's a connection between anime and gaming in general, and indirectly to pen and paper/board/or TCG games. There have been anime based TCGs, a few board games, and stuff like GOO's licensed titles (the early ones are much better) and the stillborn translation of the Japanese Gundam RPG. It's another hook, another possible sale, if a RPG appeals to people into things like anime.

Sidenote: My understanding is that Hobby Japan (and Bandai?) handle most pen and paper RPGs in Japan while their magazine features the whole range of models, focusing on historical/car models but also covering figures, miniatures, sci-fi, and fantasy kits. It's a quality recognized hobby magazine, usually at least one issue is in a lot of hobby/gaming stores in the US. I know it used to feature ads for the Japanese editions of English language RPGs.


* usually a title will start out in one format and if whatever format sells well it's quickly developed into other types of product