Quote from: DavetheLost;950994For years we worked under the assumption that every game referee would roll their own campaign world or worlds.  Didn't matter if we were playing D&D or Traveller, or something else altogether. The world was always a home-brew. Often there wasn't even a well thought out world per se, there was just the adventure and the bare minimum "world" around it needed for that adventure.

If we were playing a carvan crossing the desert the world might only consist of the desert and the starting and ending points of the caravan. Even that might not be fully mapped out.

Mash in what ever you liked. Remember OD&D had creatures from Barsoom and Middle Earth on the encounter tabes.  We also made a lot of stuff up from whole cloth. Magic items did whatever the DM decided they did. We didn't follow an "crafting rules". Creatures in Gamma World could have all sorts of strange mutant abilities, remember Hoops and their ability to turn metal to rubber with a touch.  That one was never explained more than "this is what they do".

I did one massive dungeon that had layers of construction and clues to hidden spaces laid out in different types of stonework from different phases of construction. When the players looked at their maps and saw a big area in the center that was seemingly void space, they got to thinking and dug through the bricks to find a "hidden" mini-dungeon.

Characters could pick up skills and abilities by player or DM saying "the character is a skilled glassblower", when we needed to see if they succeeded in doing something it was usually "roll high".

Now this I like. I will definitely do homebrewing and meshing in whatever I like with my OD&D-esque "Pre-Old School" game. That would work very well for the old 70's style sandbox play I am envisioning for the game.

I am focused on this conversation from the angle of Classic Traveller (which I've been drilling into and consider one of Tristram's "Pre-School" games).

With that in mind I think we can take DavetheLost's post and build a set of bullet points that would be right at home in swinging the original intentions of Traveller Books 1-3 back into play...

• Every game referee rolls their own campaign world or worlds.  
• No well thought out world needed.
• The Referee needs just the adventure and the bare minimum "world" around it needed for that adventure.
• Even the adventure might not be built at the level of bare minimum.

Example: If playing a carvan crossing the desert, the world might only consist of the desert and the starting and ending points of the caravan. Even that might not be fully mapped out.
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Right there, comparing the sort of play DavetheLost describes agains the expectations of later Traveller play shows a sharp contrast.

To head into setting up a Traveller campaign almost destroys most expectations. As Ester says, "The problem... is we are already 'contaminated' having read dozens of rules book." To really read Traveller Books 1-3 with their original intent in 1977 means really being aware of this "contaminated" point-of-view and stripping out it out carefully.

Quote from: estar;950905I know this sounds snarky but the best way to think about the pre-OD&D situation is to think about what you would do to run a campaign where a dozen players or so want to fight out the Napoleonic Wars where the individual battle are fought with miniature armies without any published rules to use. That the kind of creativity that was being used back then.

What there nothing to use? No there was stuff, if you are talking 1970 you had a decade worth of people talking about odds, dice, and research into actual weapon data to come up with the rule to fight a miniature wargame scenario. You had some semi-related wargames produced by Avalon Hill like Diplomacy to serve as a starting point. But by and large if you had an idea, you had to come up with the rules to play it.

The problem with recreating that today is we are already "contaminated" having read dozens of rules book. The closest a modern referee can come is to do what I been advocating and that is define the setting of the campaign first and the rules second. And if the base rule set needs to be pounded or torn to make it work for the setting you chosen, then by god pound it or tear it to make it work like you want it to work. If at any point in the campaign the players proposes something that makes sense for his character to do but the rules read the other way, fuck the rules, make a new ruling and pencil that in for later.

If you do that then you are playing in the spirit of how gaming was done in the early 70s.

#BaskingInMyOldSchoolness.
Funny part, when I started doing more or less that, I thought I was inventing something new:D!

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;951032No well thought out world needed.

But as Tekumel shows since 1975, it certainly helps;).

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;951032No well thought out world needed.

Quote from: AsenRG;951036But as Tekumel shows since 1975, it certainly helps;).

And yet we know Barker startled people with claims that many elements of the world were not thought out because he had no need of them yet.
I don't really want to go down the rabbit hole of defending what "well thought out" means, but I think one has to be careful about how complete and/or thought out an RPG setting is.

I would also offer, based on evidence I've seen online from certain fans of Tekumel, Glorantha, and The Third Imperium, focusing on "well thought out worlds" can often be a sand trap that has little with getting around to actually playing a game. (Not knocking the settings. But pointing out some people stop seeing them as starting points and see them as doctoral programs.)

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;951041But pointing out some people stop seeing them as starting points and see them as doctoral programs.

If I'm going to get a degree that has nothing to do with my job anyway, I can think of worse things than having to play games I love for 20+ hours a week for 6-10 years.  

(EDIT: yes, I know your point was that people bitch about the games more than play them, but stop tramping on my dreams!)

So, I'm currently working on my Chainmail Hearts game (the OD&D retro-clone) and so far, it's going along well.

I also sort of want to write a fanfiction about OD&D as well. It'd be a Naruto AU set in 1970's Chicago in which Kakashi, Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura are gamers playing OD&D when it first came out. Kakashi is the Referee of course. It would be a story within a story in which the scenario of 70's Chicago serves as the framing device for the main story, the in-character events of the OD&D campaign.

The cast I have so far is as follows...

Kakashi Hatake: Referee
Naruto Uzumaki: Human Fighter
Sasuke Uchiha: Human Magic-User
Sakura Haruno: Human Cleric

There may also be a sub-plot within the framing story in which Sasuke's older brother Itachi Uchiha is a street tough rolling with the Almighty Gaylords street gang of Chicago (or maybe the Simon City Royals, haven't really decided yet)

My background started D&D in '77-'78 played wargames before, mostly Blitzkrieg and Squad Leader but some other more esoteric ones through Project Warrior.  Played Traveller and The Fantasy Trip and Car Wars all when they came out, as well as Space Opera, Star Frontiers, Aftermath!, Call of Cthulu, Bushido, etc .etc.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;950887...
To paraphrase the post, the "Pre-Old School" generation of RPG's assumed players were familiar with wargames and used a lot of wargaming tropes. Imagination and improvisation are key as many of these systems were bare-bones.

The Fantasy Trip and Car Wars were anything but bare bones.  Elegant yes, but not bare bones.

QuoteFrom what I gather, there was a lot of improvisation on the part of both players and referees and while role-playing, immersion, and stories were part of these games from the get-go, it was more implied rather than enumerated. Sandbox gameplay also seemed to be commonplace If Gronan is interested, maybe he can give some input on this first generation of gaming back in the 1970s and hopefully clarify these points (as well as correct any errors I may have made in my assumptions).

It seems to me that many of these early RPG's were basically tabletop combat engines (in the One-on-One scale, of course) that encouraged immersion and it was the job of the players and the referee to bring the role-playing, character immersion, and story elements that are the core of RPG's. Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in this assessment and I'd love to hear everyone's input on this subject.

I first say this was long before the age of the internet, when a long distance phone call cost a pretty penny.  Gaming styles could be very local.  We loved RPG because they got us out of the pure combat of wargames.  We had already started making an advancement system for certain Squad Leader leaders.  Damn you Steiner!

QuoteIf one were to make their own game (or at least their own campaign) in that "Pre-Old School" style of first-generation RPG's, how would one best capture that feel in both style and gameplay? What systems would work best and how would you go about in developing your own base system for it?

Comments, discussion, and input would be greatly appreciated.

I like a more simple dice pool mechanic it is very similar to a 6 is a hit mentality of chainmail.  Otherwise I would go to a 2d10 mechanic, more flexible than the 2D6 mechanic of The Fantasy Trip.  The key is basic broad rules that can be adapted to many situations instead of a feat for everything and everything a feat.  You can go to town on detailed accoutrements, like spells and magic times, but keep the core rules simple.   I really found d20 to be too rough grained for much more than abstract combat, and percentile systems too fine grained.  I can go on about why as have been doing my own dice pool mechanic ala Atomic Highway for a year or so and the 2d10 for about 20 years.   ON classes, keep 'em unless you are willing to really work on your system.  A class based system is easy to implement well, a skill based one is very hard to implement well.

Quote from: Xanther;951090The Fantasy Trip and Car Wars were anything but bare bones.  Elegant yes, but not bare bones.

I'm not as familiar with Car Wars and The Fantasy Trip as I am with OD&D or even Boot Hill. Sorry if I made any errors.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;951091I'm not as familiar with Car Wars and The Fantasy Trip as I am with OD&D or even Boot Hill. Sorry if I made any errors.

You should check out The Fantasy Trip then, it is a great take and great start on skill based.  It does have a problem of dynamic range, i.e. the mechanics break down after a certain "level."  Car Wars wasn't really an RPG, although there was some experience mechanic, but simply motor vehicle mayhem.  It had it's own rule balance issues over the years through various editions and had a tendency to get gear heady.   I think Atomic Highway does a much better take on car battles, simple with all the car wars flavor.  I don't miss the movement tracking of Car Wars.  Car Wars is a great miniature type car combat game.  If you want to track movement specifically, it can't be beat.  I've many a fond memories of Sunday Driver and combat in the Arena.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;950894I will keep that in mind and do my best to get a copy of the OD&D White Box. I'd love to run a campaign in that old-school sandbox style and from there, see if I can make a retro-clone game in that style.

The pdf of the OD&D books are available on Drivethrurpg.

Quote from: Voros;951113The pdf of the OD&D books are available on Drivethrurpg.

I know, I will be buying the PDF's probably later this week.

Quote from: Xanther;951093You should check out The Fantasy Trip then, it is a great take and great start on skill based.  It does have a problem of dynamic range, i.e. the mechanics break down after a certain "level."  Car Wars wasn't really an RPG, although there was some experience mechanic, but simply motor vehicle mayhem.  It had it's own rule balance issues over the years through various editions and had a tendency to get gear heady.   I think Atomic Highway does a much better take on car battles, simple with all the car wars flavor.  I don't miss the movement tracking of Car Wars.  Car Wars is a great miniature type car combat game.  If you want to track movement specifically, it can't be beat.  I've many a fond memories of Sunday Driver and combat in the Arena.

You can get the Classic Rules for Car Wars free, so there's no reason not to have it. I've even templates for rulers and turning arc stuff that's scaled to Hot Wheels/Match Box cars. Yes it wasn't an RPG, though later on there was Autoduel for GURPS. I figure if I decide to run it, I'll be making a trip to the toy store and getting some tools printed out.

Quote from: Krimson;951123You can get the Classic Rules for Car Wars free, so there's no reason not to have it. I've even templates for rulers and turning arc stuff that's scaled to Hot Wheels/Match Box cars. Yes it wasn't an RPG, though later on there was Autoduel for GURPS. I figure if I decide to run it, I'll be making a trip to the toy store and getting some tools printed out.

I might do the same as well, download the free version of Car Wars and buy me some Hot Wheels. From there, I'll be recreating the original Mad Max but in Virginia instead of Australia. Might even take the classic rules and mod them into an OD&D-esque RPG.

Open highways, car chases, and gun battles against roving gangs of Anarcho-Communist thugs all the while as society collapses around me. It will be awesome.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;951124I might do the same as well, download the free version of Car Wars and buy me some Hot Wheels. From there, I'll be recreating the original Mad Max but in Virginia instead of Australia.

Open highways, car chases, and gun battles against roving gangs of Anarcho-Communist thugs all the while as society collapses around me. It will be awesome.

Matchbox and Hot Wheels use a 1:64 scale... Sort of. The cars can range from like 1:50-1:75 or even more but they're supposed to be 1:64. So anything you use should be of a similar scale, though you might get away with using a smaller scale for roads and props, so long as you're measuring movement rates properly. So if you need to use people or other props, you can get away with using 25-28mm miniatures. Something to consider if you shop online. I'd probably make buildings out of cardboard with scaled printouts glued on, though I suspect the building would end up being a regular box that probably has a cat sitting in it.

Quote from: Xanther;951093[Car Wars] had a tendency to get gear heady.

I tend to think the gearheadiness was the actual point of the game.

Quote from: Krimson;951123Yes it wasn't an RPG, though later on there was Autoduel for GURPS.

There was also Autoduel Champions, which was released before GURPS Autoduel (or GURPS, for that matter).