Quote from: Ulairi;993676I think it would do Harn-esque Fantasy right out of the box.  I have played DCC and I think with the right GM it would give the same sort of experience. I'm not familiar enough with Plancescape.

One of the nice things is that it's fully compatible with GURPS so bolting on those things shouldn't be too difficult .

My Box hasn't arrived yet but looking foreward to it as it will be the first time I've taken the plunge into the GURPS rules (vs. buying sourcebooks for fluff).

And I loooove Harn so I'm curious how it would handle a low magic, deadly combat Early Medieval world. I think HERO Fantasy with the bolt on rules like hit locations does a good job for HARN, but since GURPS is supposed to be better at the lower end of things than HERO I suspect it would be a great fit for Harn.

I get the impression that GURPS like HERO, is Complex but not Complicated, if that makes sense.

Quote from: Opaopajr;993899How Plug 'n Play ready is it? Can I pull a table up and drop 'n go strangers within minutes? Is it like D&D 5e Starter Set, or PF Starter Set? Pregens? Move most of the busy work options outta the way, (I do like that there's a quick play "class" suite of skill, adv, flaw options)?

I like GURPS. I just felt it had to get out of its own way. It needed a Bauhaus, Coco Chanel, touch: "less is more," and "before you leave, take two more accessories off."

As estar mentioned, you can be ready to go in under an hour, easy. The "Delvers to Go" booklet included in the GM Screen is nothing but a bunch of pregens, so that might be handy to get people started. And the GM Screen itself is very nice and sturdy, much like the screen for the new Delta Green game, if you're familiar with that.

But honestly, the Dungeon Fantasy box gives you everything you need (and nothing you don't) to get you going with character creation. It doesn't say "here's 1,001 Arabian Options, go make your character", instead it breaks everything down into "templates", or professions, which are essentially recognizable as D&D's classes. It gives you templates for Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Holy Warrior, Knight, Martial Artist, Scout, Swashbuckler, Thief, and Wizard. Each template sets your basic Attributes and provides a few starting Advantages appropriate for that template, then gives you several options for customizing your character. For example, the Knight starts with the Advantages of Born War Leader, Combat Reflexes, and High Pain Threshold. Then you have 60 points with which to choose from a pre-determined list of Advantages and Attribute increases (there are a *lot* of options). Then you choose 20 points of Disadvantages from one list and 15 points from another. Then you choose one of three different skill packages reflecting your skill at arms (each template has its own list of skill packages to choose from). On top of that, as a Knight you get a bunch of other skills automatically as part of the template, then you select several of your choice from a pre-determined list. At that point, aside from buying gear, you're done. The whole process should only take 15 minutes or so, really. Even for a total newbie, I would think. Everything is laid right out for you.

However, each template also provides "customization notes", which are just notes on how to select from the above options if you're stuck for ideas (or totally new) or if you want to take more time personalizing your character.

There is also a section on "custom professions" if you don't want to limit yourself to the templates and instead want to spend your starting points however you want. The point of the templates is to make fairly balanced 250 point characters that fit certain "dungeon fantasy" archetypes with a minimum of time and fuss, but you don't have to feel limited by those. All the Advantages, Disadvantages, and Skills have their own respective sections in the main "Adventurers" manual for easy reference. Spells and Magic have their own separate manual (as do Monsters). This makes creating whatever kind of character you want super easy if you feel like stepping away from the templates.

As for "gonzo" and Planescape mentioned up thread: There's nothing specifically addressing gonzo in the set, but I think it could be pulled off easily enough. It might require a little bit of work on the GM's part to write up some corruption tables ala DCC, but there are enough Advantages, Disadvantages, and Spells to get one started. And as far as I can tell, gonzo is more of a "style" thing than a "system" thing, so you should be able to run your game that way easily enough if you wanted to.

Same with Planescape. There is a brief mention of adventuring on the Outer Planes in the "Exploits" manual (the "rulebook" that comes with the set, p84 if you're interested) and that should be enough for any GM with a little bit of imagination. There are no detailed write ups of any of the planes in this set, but everything you need rules-wise is there. The rest is window dressing. Adjust mana, Nature's strength, or sanctity (the game elements that affect wizard, druid, and cleric magic, respectively) if certain types of magic are more or less powerful on certain planes. For example, the Sanctity level for cleric spells is usually set at "Normal". This represents most places and simply means cleric magic works normally. Ditto for wizards and druids. If the cleric went wandering around the Plane of Hell (for example), you might set the Sanctity at "Low", instead. This results in a -5 to cleric spell skill rolls. Another example might be if a Druid went wandering around the Outer Plane of the Beastlands. Nature's Strength might be set at "Primeval Wilderness", which would result in a +5 to druid spell skill rolls (since the Beastlands are literally the divine realm of nature; primeval wilderness on the Material Plane might only result in a +1 to +3, it all depends on the GM).

Other than that, make environmental adjustments to take into account things like temperature, terrain, etc., and you should have the planes pretty well covered. Add in some Planescape specific monsters and player races and you're good to go. Player races (such as the bariaur) are easy enough. Racial templates for elves, dwarves, etc., are already provided in the "Adventurers" manual and are nothing more than a collection of Advantages, Disadvantages, Attribute modifiers, and maybe some Skills. Should be easy enough to make other player races, as well.

Honestly, I feel this set has vastly more replay value than either the D&D 5e Starter Set or the Pathfinder Beginner Set. I think it showcases the strength and versatility of the GURPS system without going all "kitchen sink" and being overwhelming. And I think it's streamlined and focused enough that if someone were to venture out into the vast range of other GURPS products, they would enough system mastery just from this set so as to likewise not be overwhelmed.

Quote from: WanderingMonster;993969Honestly, I feel this set has vastly more replay value than either the D&D 5e Starter Set or the Pathfinder Beginner Set. I think it showcases the strength and versatility of the GURPS system without going all "kitchen sink" and being overwhelming. And I think it's streamlined and focused enough that if someone were to venture out into the vast range of other GURPS products, they would enough system mastery just from this set so as to likewise not be overwhelmed.

I concur which is why I been comparing in terms of what it cover to Runeques 6/Mythras rather than the D&D & PF boxed sets. It not a starter set but a complete Fantasy RPG with mechanics that are on the crunchy side with a solid design. The issue with GURPS has been presentation and having ready to use stuff this boxed set solves both.

Is it true that the map has the secret doors visible so you can't really use it as a battle mat?

I'm waiting on my boxed set and GM Screen - scheduled for delivery today. I did stop by my local game store on the way home. They had some DF boxed sets on the new arrival shelf, along with GM Screens, Companions and extra dice. I picked up a copy of the Companion - I'd been wanting one in print since estar's unboxing article - and another 6d6.

Quote from: Gwarh;993960And I loooove Harn so I'm curious how it would handle a low magic, deadly combat Early Medieval world. I think HERO Fantasy with the bolt on rules like hit locations does a good job for HARN, but since GURPS is supposed to be better at the lower end of things than HERO I suspect it would be a great fit for Harn.

I've run a GURPS Harn campaign, actually. It worked quite well - that group's 2nd favorite (a high fantasy campaign via 6d6 rpg is their first). I was using a mix of 1st and 3rd ed GURPS with Fantasy and Magic, along with the Harn map, Harndex and a few of the Kaldor regional modules. The kickoff was the Field of Daisies (a FreeRPG Day module of all things), which has a cavern / dungeon crawl.

I'd expect Dungeon Fantasy to be an even easier, out of the box match for Harn.

When I first glanced at this thread, I thought it was "Drunken Fantasy" for some reason.  Now THAT would be a game I'd pick up!

Quote from: RPGPundit;994498When I first glanced at this thread, I thought it was "Drunken Fantasy" for some reason.  Now THAT would be a game I'd pick up!

There is this if yer looking for literally a RPG'ish Game in which you also have to drink as a consequence of your actions

Drinking Quest

Nah, I was thinking more like a gang of alcoholics making their way through a dungeon.

Thanks for the update, estar & WanderingMonster! It definitely sounds like they listened to complaints and made this suite more "intensely involved"-optional. The crunch is there for those who care, but they are in various packages of involvement. (With DF and from DM screen I am reading you get pre-gen, "class" template, profession template, common template variations... all the way to build-your-own.)

I wish them the best. Sounds like a complete game, but with enough dampeners and organization so as to quick-reference into a game as fast as (GURPS) possible. Not really on the market for $60 DF + $25 DM Screen to run generic fantasy fucking vietman right now. But it sounds like an actual collection asset and gateway experience.

I haven't really heard anything about this, but I am curious. If they keep a tight focus on the rules and options used, and it had a cruelly efficient editor I could be interested.

Quote from: Gwarh;993960My Box hasn't arrived yet but looking foreward to it as it will be the first time I've taken the plunge into the GURPS rules (vs. buying sourcebooks for fluff).

And I loooove Harn so I'm curious how it would handle a low magic, deadly combat Early Medieval world. I think HERO Fantasy with the bolt on rules like hit locations does a good job for HARN, but since GURPS is supposed to be better at the lower end of things than HERO I suspect it would be a great fit for Harn.

I get the impression that GURPS like HERO, is Complex but not Complicated, if that makes sense.

There is a lot of similarity between HERO and GURPS. One of the major differences is GURPS has many lists, skills, disadvantages etc, plus so many options, where HERO has fewer lists but you kind of have to build everything. When you get down to the basics though very similar, with GURPS being a touch easier to grasp for many. GURPS is like shopping for a tool set at a hardware store, HERO is like shopping for a tool set at a made to order blacksmith.

Quote from: Skarg;993092Any reason not to just use 100-point starting characters as per ancient tradition, or whatever the GM wants? Any peculiar ensuing complications of doing so?

Quote from: Koltar;993659New standard since 4th edition started in 2004 has been 150 point characters.

Well I did write "per ancient tradition"...
I appreciate that there are more things to spend points on in 4e than in earlier Basic Sets, and that costs are different, and with some hunting I re-found that page B487 mentions "most full-time adventurers start their careers at around 150 points", though it also lists:
75-100 points as "exceptional": star athletes, seasoned cops, with potential to become full-time adventurers (rather like 3e calling 100 points "hero material").
100-200 points as "heroic": people at the realistic pinnacle of physical, mental or social achievement.

Also, checking out GURPS Martial Arts page 29, in the realism section "anything over 200 points verges on unrealistic". And on page 30 in the section on student PCs "75 points is typical. Anything over 100 points is cinematic... for a student."

So it seems to me that the difference in suggested starting points isn't so much about edition as it is about how realistic you want the ability levels to be. And of course it's all relative and there are other details to consider such as what PCs are allowed to spend how many points on, and what the typical foes are going to be like, and how many extra points PCs may be allowed to acquire and spend on improving their characters over what span of time.

Since Dungeon Fantasy is a D&D-esque genre, I'm expecting there to be less emphasis on realism and some pretty amped-up monsters. As someone who's probably mostly going to use it to mine stuff for more realistic settings, I'm just wondering how skewed upwards the power levels are. Sadly my copy is languishing at a distant address until I go fetch it.

They bloated the points for a simple reason - and one that is going to remain challenging even at 250 points: The basic GURPS engine is pretty deadly, like any realistic combat engine should be (Runequest, TFT, etc.). These sorts of games are intrinsically ill suited to the concept of a dungeon crawl, as we understand it from the experience of playing D&D. The basic problem is that any fight that contains an element of risk provides a good chance you will take damage. In D&D damage is a resource that you ablate over time, and the more experience you have the more 'dings' you can take over the course of an adventure. Thus, you don't have to be invulnerable to be powerful and successful. In contrast, any game built on a 'realism' damage mechanic punishes you harshly for taking a meaningful wound. The only way to be powerful is to be invulnerable in nearly every encounter. Outcomes are binary, unlike the shades-of-gray outcomes of D&D encounters or other risky events.

The 'solution' in Dungeon Fantasy is to have you start so powerful that you are effectively invulnerable to most events, so you have a good chance of surviving a dozen or two encounters. But this means each encounter has a pretty much fixed outcome with no real cost to your character. Its the same solution implied by 4E/5E D&D, where you recover your resources after each fight (or two).

I love games with this sort of rules sets; Runequest and TFT are both genius, and GURPS is basically TFT on steroids. But none of those games can really create the dynamic of a D&D adventure. Dungeons in these sorts of systems need to be short and carefully balanced to the character's abilities, so there are just a few encounters or challenges, but each of them is dangerous enough to catch your attention.

Quote from: Larsdangly;997087The 'solution' in Dungeon Fantasy is to have you start so powerful that you are effectively invulnerable to most events, so you have a good chance of surviving a dozen or two encounters. But this means each encounter has a pretty much fixed outcome with no real cost to your character. Its the same solution implied by 4E/5E D&D, where you recover your resources after each fight (or two).

Interesting analysis. I wonder if another solution, rather than starting everyone at 250 CP, is simply to give everyone X more HP (where X = 10, 20, or whatever.) You could even increase X by 5 every time the characters earned a certain amount of XP.

Quote from: Larsdangly;997087They bloated the points for a simple reason - and one that is going to remain challenging even at 250 points: The basic GURPS engine is pretty deadly, like any realistic combat engine should be (Runequest, TFT, etc.). These sorts of games are intrinsically ill suited to the concept of a dungeon crawl, as we understand it from the experience of playing D&D. The basic problem is that any fight that contains an element of risk provides a good chance you will take damage. In D&D damage is a resource that you ablate over time, and the more experience you have the more 'dings' you can take over the course of an adventure. Thus, you don't have to be invulnerable to be powerful and successful. In contrast, any game built on a 'realism' damage mechanic punishes you harshly for taking a meaningful wound. The only way to be powerful is to be invulnerable in nearly every encounter. Outcomes are binary, unlike the shades-of-gray outcomes of D&D encounters or other risky events.

Are you sure it wasn't also to try to cater to the expectations of D&D players for higher power levels and less realism?
I've run combat-heavy TFT & GURPS since 1980. My experience is that you're off/exaggerating about the last part, that "the only way to be powerful is to be invulnerable in nearly every encounter". You just have to find effective ways to usually not get seriously hurt, and manage whatever that is. Tactics, cleverness, deception, fear, carefulness, scouting, picking your battles, equipment, armor, skills, stealth, magic, NPC reinforcements, willingness to retreat, negotiate or surrender. And then you need to be ok with managing risk and unpredictable outcomes rather than being able to count on a wall of "hit points" shielding you from actual injury.

QuoteThe 'solution' in Dungeon Fantasy is to have you start so powerful that you are effectively invulnerable to most events, so you have a good chance of surviving a dozen or two encounters. But this means each encounter has a pretty much fixed outcome with no real cost to your character. Its the same solution implied by 4E/5E D&D, where you recover your resources after each fight (or two).

Well it's not really the same, it just has a similar usual outcome for tests beneath your ability. Having no chance to lose and all consequences wiped away (5e) is quite different from having little chance to lose but you could possibly be killed or maimed, and even a minor injury takes something to heal. Instead of a mountain of abstract hitpoints as a predictable resource that prevents serious risk but is very hard to avoid losing some of all the time, there are much less certain risks of lasting damage to bodies and equipment, and the play is about doing things to manage specifics risk (rather than manage abstract hit points).

QuoteI love games with this sort of rules sets; Runequest and TFT are both genius, and GURPS is basically TFT on steroids.

Yes.

QuoteBut none of those games can really create the dynamic of a D&D adventure. Dungeons in these sorts of systems need to be short and carefully balanced to the character's abilities, so there are just a few encounters or challenges, but each of them is dangerous enough to catch your attention.

What is the positive thing you'd want to extract from the dynamic of a D&D adventure? I've run plenty of TFT & GURPS adventures which went on and on with plenty of risk & consequences and when I've added stuff that makes characters more like D&D characters (for example, allowing the GURPS Magic healing spells), I've almost always felt the results weren't something I wanted.