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Author Topic: The dungeon crawl as survival horror  (Read 3436 times)

Balbinus

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The dungeon crawl as survival horror
« on: November 17, 2006, 11:16:45 AM »
Dungeons get a bad press, mostly pretty deservedly.

By and large they make little sense and are not particularly atmospheric.

But, that isn't how it has to be.

Let's go back to basics.  What's happening in a dungeon scenario?

A group of people is going into an unknown underground environment, they know nothing about it beyond the fact that it contains some form of deadly threat that will seek to kill them.

That already is getting into horror territory.  Then think about that environment.  Underground, so dark, probably claustrophobic, ten by ten rooms or would it be suddenly narrowing corridoors interspersed with passages going down or up or at some completely random angle.  No knowledge if this route takes you out or to a dead end or to some deadly trap.  Once you're in, you are cut off from supplies and reinforcements and if you're unlucky may get physically cut off by enemies coming in from behind you.

Essentially, we are talking horror.

So, if I wanted to run a dungeon in this vein, as survival horror, how would you recommend making it credible and fun to the kind of people who wouldn't normally touch a dungeon with a ten foot pole.

Oh, and yes, I did see the Descent within the last year, why do you ask?

Blackleaf

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The dungeon crawl as survival horror
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2006, 11:35:45 AM »
Someone over at Dragonsfoot wrote an *excellent* explanation of the Dungeon genre.  Unfortunately I can't find the link :(

My horribly crude paraphrasing that doesn't do justice to the original...

It's about the Dungeon itself as the adversary. Going into the Dungeon is about descending into "the underworld" of myth and legend, where the rules of the normal world are suspended.  The Dungeon isn't just a hole in the ground, it's more like a Dreamworld, or Hades, or another Dimension.

You need to stop thinking about Dungeon ecology, and giving detailed backgrounds, history, and culture for all it's inhabitants.  Don't worry about why the goblins are waiting in the dark room, or what they eat -- they're things of magic... and they're waiting there to eat YOU.  Adventuring in the dungeon is less about reality, and more about fairy tales.

If I can find the (superior) original text, I'll link it up.

If you want to make your dungeon more "survival horror" don't think of it as just being the basement of a castle.  Think of it as the dark and twisting passageways from Hellraiser.

Balbinus

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The dungeon crawl as survival horror
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2006, 11:39:07 AM »
Internal consistency is really important to me though, I could do dreamlike, but only if dreamlike made sense in the context if you follow.

So things like ecology do matter to me, I think also that if you can make it make sense that can add to the horror, as the players can believe in it.

Blackleaf

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The dungeon crawl as survival horror
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2006, 11:44:08 AM »
Quote
Internal consistency is really important to me though, I could do dreamlike, but only if dreamlike made sense in the context if you follow.


Think about the ending to Rob Zombie's "House of 1000 Corpses".  I mean, it's set in the "real world" but that doesn't make much literal sense -- she's gone into the dungeon -- into the "other world". :)

Particularly in a game with magic, this kind of thing is even easier to use without breaking suspension of disbelief.

But if you want to keep things hyper realistic and plausible, and not use the magic / otherworld angle... you should still look to any horror movie where people go "underground".

Sosthenes

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The dungeon crawl as survival horror
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2006, 11:45:34 AM »
Making dungeons palatable to people who think they're too good for them? Call 'em "Shadowruns" or some other crap...

Survival horror means different things to different people. If you look at something like Resident Evil or Silent Hill, you're very, very close to a classic dungeon, just with a different incentive. Open door, survive monster, flee to next room.

As a surreal horror experience (for the artsy woe-is-me folks), you won't get anything out of them. You'd end up something that can't be called dungeon anymore...

Most dungeons actually _are_ survival horror already. If they're not, your DM is a pansy. ;)
 

Balbinus

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The dungeon crawl as survival horror
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2006, 11:49:40 AM »
Quote from: Sosthenes
Most dungeons actually _are_ survival horror already. If they're not, your DM is a pansy. ;)


Quite possibly so, but if so it's a skill I've long since lost.

This may be 101 to you, but it ain't to me.

And I'm not talking angsty players, just players jaded with the shitty hackwork crap DnD games that burnt many of us off DnD for life.  That isn't a slam on DnD incidentally, it's a slam on shitty hackwork games run by crap GMs that quite a few of us have encountered and that have made games like DnD a bit of a bad taste.

On system I would either use Rules Cyclopedia or The Fantasy Trip, though Runequest 2e is also worth considering.

Balbinus

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The dungeon crawl as survival horror
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2006, 11:51:23 AM »
Quote from: Sosthenes
Making dungeons palatable to people who think they're too good for them?


I just checked, all I said was people who wouldn't normally touch them, people who think they're too good for them was something you brought to the party.

Lighten up, a lot of us have had shitty experiences with dungeons and similar stuff, me included.  All I'm doing here is asking for tips from those who've seen them done properly.

Mr. Analytical

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The dungeon crawl as survival horror
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2006, 12:07:35 PM »
I'd say play it straight.  The party are locked into a dungeon and have to make their way out negotiating traps and monsters, but instead of relying on the kinds of traps that can be outdone with a roll of the dice, make them things that need to be thought about.  Cube's a good example of a dungeon as survival horror.

The problem is though that then you're just playing a board game really.  Some people don't enjoy that kind of challenge.

Personally, I think it would get dull after about one session.  I really can't imagine myself spending hours week in, week out thinking about mechanics and weight distribution and solving riddles.

One of the reasons why Dungeons are so popular as a form of play is that writing quality really doesn't enter into it.  It's difficult to come up with a coherent plot and an intrigue for people to solve but pretty much anyone with hands can write a dungeon.

I don't think the problem with Dungeons is that people get burned out on bad ones, it's just that it's a very particular gaming experience and A) not everyone will enjoy it and B) many people who have or might enjoy it, might simply prefer to spend their time having other kinds of playing experiences.

Balbinus

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The dungeon crawl as survival horror
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2006, 12:14:16 PM »
Quote from: Mr. Analytical
I'd say play it straight.  The party are locked into a dungeon and have to make their way out negotiating traps and monsters, but instead of relying on the kinds of traps that can be outdone with a roll of the dice, make them things that need to be thought about.  Cube's a good example of a dungeon as survival horror.

The problem is though that then you're just playing a board game really.  Some people don't enjoy that kind of challenge.


At that point I'd just play a boardgame, it does it better.

Cube is closer to what I was getting at though, really that is about the characters, the environment is merely a stressor.  In fact, probably the key genre element in survival horror is that the horror is backdrop, the interest is in the choices the characters make when pushed to their limits.

Mechanics and weight distribution sounds terribly dull, but being cut off from rescue while your supplies run down and things in the darkness hunt you down one by one could be quite fun.  I mean, not as a week in, week out thing, but as a change of pace.

Intrigue though, is it really so hard?  One just need posit something people want and some reason they can't just legitimately get it.  I find intrigue reasonably easy, survival horror or anything based on being thrown onto your own resources to survive is much harder.

Ned the Lonely Donkey

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The dungeon crawl as survival horror
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2006, 12:14:42 PM »
To be interesting, a dungeon needs a goal. "Go things and take their stuff" is, as Mr A observes, a board game, more or less. I'm not averse to that style of play, personally, but it gets stale quickly. Having a good motivation to be their turns it into a (slightly) more interesting prospect because you can take more imaginative approaches to achieving your goal.

Dungeons with intelligent occupants should be more like under-ground city adventures. We played Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil as a kick-down-the-door hackfest, but I think the seeds are there for a more subtle approach (not that I ever read the module).

One of the keys of survival horror is overwhelming odds - you're not there to collect scalps or treasure. Just surviving is the goal, let alone surviving intact.

Sorry for the random thought splurge - it's nearly home time!

Ned
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Mr. Analytical

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The dungeon crawl as survival horror
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2006, 12:20:36 PM »
Quote from: Balbinus

Cube is closer to what I was getting at though, really that is about the characters, the environment is merely a stressor.  In fact, probably the key genre element in survival horror is that the horror is backdrop, the interest is in the choices the characters make when pushed to their limits.


  I don't think that's doable in an RPG.  In terms of genre cinema or fiction, what you're talking about would be a kind of character study which is all about exploring the limits of who people are.

  RPGs, even indie ones, are spectacularly bad at that kind of dramatic introspection.  In fact, psychological drama is difficult to do in RPGs because most people struggle to have a firm grip on their characters, are improvising their reactions on the fly and aren't actors and so aren't willing or able to emulate a character that's being put through an emotional mincer.

Maddman

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The dungeon crawl as survival horror
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2006, 01:29:21 PM »
Rather than start with what a dungeon is, I'll start with what survival horror is.  To me anyway.

There's two things you need for Survival Horror.  The first is limited resources.  Using D&D as a base, so long as the PCs can hole up and camp so casters can get their spells back, you will never have a survival horror feel.  The second is that there are more nasty things that want to eat you than you can possibly kill.

To do this in a dungeon, the PCs resources would have to be nonrenewable.  Imagine the casters running dry of spells and scrounging through the bodies of others trapped in this awful place for wands and scrolls.  There could be no possibility of returning to town for supplies, the PCs have to be trapped here.  They can't go back, the only way out is through.  And it has to test the PCs not only physically but mentally and socially.  Put in situations that will stress the group's cohesiveness, that will test what they will do in a harsh situation.
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arminius

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The dungeon crawl as survival horror
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2006, 04:16:22 AM »
I like the ideas that have been put forward here. In fact I've been thinking something along the same lines for a Rules Cyclopedia game.

One element that needs emphasizing is the character motivation. For this game I'm thinking of encouraging the players to basically create characters who are desperate in life, greedy, or overconfident.

Another element is avoiding overinvestment in character. Survival horror needs death as a real possibility. So my idea for a quick and dirty solution is to have each player control a couple characters at the start. This should encourage a bit more of a "pawn stance" and reduce the sting of death without impairing its entertainment value. The motivations described above might also help make the characters less sympathetic--essentially, alienating the player from the character a bit is a good thing.

About limiting resources, for both D&D and TFT, I think the answer is to make time precious. Wandering monsters can help out here.

Finally, for intercharacter relations, I'm toying with the idea of a trust mechanic similar to The Mountain Witch. I'm not completely sold on it, partly because I'd like to play RC pretty much "straight", but it does look like it could help with issues of party cohesiveness, trust and betrayal. The barebones version of the rule is here. Essentially, it allows each player to give points to each other player. Those points can then be used to affect the actions of the character who gave them--either positively or negatively. E.g., adapting for D&D, you might give 5 trust points to someone, and he can use them one at a time to either give you back 1d6 hit points or give you a +5 OR -5 on your attack rolls for the duration of one fight, one saving throw, or skill roll.

At some breakpoint the points refresh and each player can modify the totals as described. That is, for each other player:
Either increase the trust points by 1, or
Keep them the same, or
Decrease them as much as you like.

Sosthenes

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The dungeon crawl as survival horror
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2006, 04:19:10 AM »
Hmm, does the "Goonies" movie count as survival horror? ;)
 

jhkim

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The dungeon crawl as survival horror
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2006, 04:29:47 AM »
I had been working on a concept for a post-apocalyptic D&D game, called "Dawn of Fire".  (Below is link for some of my ideas.)  

Dawn of Fire

The basic idea is that over a few years, dragons start multiply like mad and take over the surface of the world.  Humanity (along with demi-humans and humanoids) are driven underground.  The campaign would be the PCs and a bunch of what people they can save finding a remote underground system to try to make a safe home for themselves.