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Author Topic: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft  (Read 30314 times)

jhkim

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #75 on: May 14, 2021, 04:38:24 PM »
I think it's always been true that close male/female emotional relationships are interpreted as potentially sexual.

Not by most of the women actually in them, or guys would never have invented the term "friend zone". Remember that the vast majority of M/M explicit fanfic is generated by straight female authors.

My statement was in the context of how *fans* read the relationships of *fictional* characters. That is, if a man and a woman are close friends in a fictional work, then fans would generally interpret that as *potentially* sexual. So, for example, even though Holmes and Adler are purely platonic rivals in the canonical fiction - fans often interpreted that in a romantic or sexual way. That's not just male fans - female fans as well. I don't see how friend zones or female authors disagrees with this.

I'm trying to think of male/female friendships in older fiction that weren't considered potentially romantic. Can you think of any?


I would say that reading emotional same-sex relationships as potentially sexual ones comes pretty directly from tolerance/acceptance of homosexual relationships in society....

I'd suggest the causality goes the other way, actually, or at least that there's a significant feedback cycle element to it: a major part of what promotes tolerance and acceptance is the public celebration of same-sex emotional intimacy as "naturally" potentially sexual, a perception that -- to be honest -- strikes me as far more likely to come from a majority-female audience than a majority-male one. Especially an audience saturated more in visual live-action imagery based on casting the best-looking actors it can -- Holmes and Watson have had a vast fanbase from their earliest days, but it's no coincidence that the Ravenloft expies Ray and Sedgwick only got sexualized as a couple after there had been a decade's worth of fanfic written about the Cumberbatch/Freeman versions of the canon originals.

On a broader basis, this seems to be the whole trouble with the Ravenloft setting reinvention: the designers seem to be trying to have their cake and eat it too by retaining everything old fans liked while simultaneously reinventing it to appeal to a desired new fanbase, and I am skeptical of their ability to pull this off. Sometimes trying to please everybody really does result in pleasing nobody.

I think there's definitely a feedback loop between mainstream portrayal of gay characters (like Ellen Degeneres, Queer as Folk, The L Word, etc.) and societal acceptance of homosexuality. However, I'm skeptical that there's a feedback loop from stuff like Star Trek. Acceptance of homosexuality drives interpreting Kirk and Spock as gay, but it's not clear that just by having Kirk and Spock be close friends, Star Trek created greater acceptance of homosexuality.

I don't have an opinion on Van Richten's yet. But as far as Holmes/Watson in general, there has been a major change in acceptance of homosexuality over the past two decades in general, and I think that has had more of an effect than fan fiction.

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #76 on: May 14, 2021, 10:12:46 PM »
This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

They made Arthur Sedgwick black, too. Not necessarily a change, since he was never described before this.

https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/attachments/8/602/van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft.jpg

From this picture, you'd think they remade Ravenloft into a Comedy Setting, it's that pathetic.
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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #77 on: May 14, 2021, 10:15:18 PM »
This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

All right, I have officially changed my position on what I will do if I get one use of a time travel machine to change history.

Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

When hollywood became governed by soulless degenerates who had no concept of the idea or possibility of true genuine friendship or fraternity.
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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #78 on: May 14, 2021, 10:23:51 PM »
I think it's always been true that close male/female emotional relationships are interpreted as potentially sexual.

Not by most of the women actually in them, or guys would never have invented the term "friend zone". Remember that the vast majority of M/M explicit fanfic is generated by straight female authors.

My statement was in the context of how *fans* read the relationships of *fictional* characters. That is, if a man and a woman are close friends in a fictional work, then fans would generally interpret that as *potentially* sexual. So, for example, even though Holmes and Adler are purely platonic rivals in the canonical fiction - fans often interpreted that in a romantic or sexual way. That's not just male fans - female fans as well. I don't see how friend zones or female authors disagrees with this.

I'm trying to think of male/female friendships in older fiction that weren't considered potentially romantic. Can you think of any?


Do you understand why this would be a totally different subject from the modern-day suggestion that any male/male friendship is not just potentially but almost required to be romantic?



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ThatChrisGuy

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #79 on: May 14, 2021, 10:38:27 PM »
Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

I feel genuine pity for anyone who reads a close male friendship as sexual.  It suggests that person's never had a true friend and doesn't understand that love means a lot more than sex.
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Bedrockbrendan

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #80 on: May 15, 2021, 06:39:55 AM »
This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

They made Arthur Sedgwick black, too. Not necessarily a change, since he was never described before this.

https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/attachments/8/602/van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft.jpg

From this picture, you'd think they remade Ravenloft into a Comedy Setting, it's that pathetic.

The tone of many of these images feels very off to me. That one in particular reminds me of Harry Potter. But a lot of the other images, the characters look like they are 'shining' too much (like it is a fun romp), rather than a dread adventure. The old Fabian Art was very simple and stylized, and might even look cartoony to modern gamers, but it got the vibe right, and it if there was any levity, it was more dark humor.

Thornhammer

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #81 on: May 15, 2021, 01:09:44 PM »
The tone of many of these images feels very off to me. That one in particular reminds me of Harry Potter. But a lot of the other images, the characters look like they are 'shining' too much (like it is a fun romp), rather than a dread adventure. The old Fabian Art was very simple and stylized, and might even look cartoony to modern gamers, but it got the vibe right, and it if there was any levity, it was more dark humor.

Way too bright. Ravenloft is dark. Shadowy.

And what the fuck is with the Christmas shit? It's RAVENLOFT.

wmarshal

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #82 on: May 15, 2021, 01:13:12 PM »
The tone of many of these images feels very off to me. That one in particular reminds me of Harry Potter. But a lot of the other images, the characters look like they are 'shining' too much (like it is a fun romp), rather than a dread adventure. The old Fabian Art was very simple and stylized, and might even look cartoony to modern gamers, but it got the vibe right, and it if there was any levity, it was more dark humor.
That is probably on purpose. To the woke Christmas is horror!!!
Way too bright. Ravenloft is dark. Shadowy.

And what the fuck is with the Christmas shit? It's RAVENLOFT.

HappyDaze

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #83 on: May 15, 2021, 01:20:42 PM »
The tone of many of these images feels very off to me. That one in particular reminds me of Harry Potter. But a lot of the other images, the characters look like they are 'shining' too much (like it is a fun romp), rather than a dread adventure. The old Fabian Art was very simple and stylized, and might even look cartoony to modern gamers, but it got the vibe right, and it if there was any levity, it was more dark humor.

Way too bright. Ravenloft is dark. Shadowy.

And what the fuck is with the Christmas shit? It's RAVENLOFT.
Christmas can be quite horrific.

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #84 on: May 15, 2021, 01:23:21 PM »
have they not seen holiday-themed slashers here or what, just run a Black Yule game or something with the krampus or whatever. not like we don't have fiction about evil dolls or toys without Christmas either.

the toys ain't scary but they're the least self-parodic parts of the piece.
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Slipshot762

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #85 on: May 15, 2021, 10:14:47 PM »
I never liked the idea of the Demiplane of Dread. Part of the terror/horror comes from the supernatural intruding into the mortal realm.

If I were to run a Ravenloft campaign, my first step would be to set it on a prime material world.

While I was a fan of ravenloft masque of the red death/gothic earth was the real treasure for me. I always tended to replace strahd with dracula anyway. Only thing holding gothic earth back to me was trying to shoehorn 2e dnd magic system into it, they should have scrapped it and made a whole new thematically appropriate magic system for it in terms of power rather than butchering the existing system to power it down and fit it in a world of electricity, revolvers, and horror derived from the notion that these things, monsters, vampires etc, should not exist. It was my favorite ravenloft product but at the same time it left me sort of edging and unfulfilled yet motivated to seek fulfillment; it did not know wether it wanted to be call of cthulhu or gunsmoke, at my table at least.

Omega

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #86 on: May 15, 2021, 10:31:23 PM »
Yes. Masque in many ways outshines Ravenloft itself and yet is relatively obscure. Great setting and good to see TSR out gothicing White Wolf.
As for the magic system. It worked in how they presented it and I rather like the extreme risk involved in even trying to use magic.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #87 on: May 16, 2021, 02:08:36 PM »
Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

I feel genuine pity for anyone who reads a close male friendship as sexual.  It suggests that person's never had a true friend and doesn't understand that love means a lot more than sex.
Sure. Sometimes it’s funny when bad writing causes homosocial friendships and cousins to have chemistry that wasn’t intended.

The Thing
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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #88 on: May 16, 2021, 06:08:12 PM »
This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

All right, I have officially changed my position on what I will do if I get one use of a time travel machine to change history.

Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

Roddenberry himself personally quashed this nonsense when he wrote the novelization to star trek the motion picture.  In the preface written by admiral kirk, he refuted these claims completely and pointed out that even he he were so inclined he would not be foolish enough to pick a partner who only became sexually aroused once every 7 years.

Oh, and marxism was an inevitable result of the horrific conditions the russian population was suffering under the czars. If you really wanted to prevent the marxist revolution which would have happened under a different name if you neutralized marx, you need to go back in time and adduct the czar, then show him what was going to happen to him and his family, including sadly poor Anastasia despite a lot of wishful thinking, and tell him to make real serious reforms in how the people were treated. Nothing else would have stopped a populist revolt in russia, period.

Here, check out this two part video, it's very concise, informative and entertaining.   https://youtu.be/Cqbleas1mmo

The Russian revolution was in many ways similar to the french revolution, which oversimplified covers too. https://youtu.be/8qRZcXIODNU

Rightards who think that they could prevent 'socialist' revolutions buy killing the historical leaders can never accept that such ideas like what they call socialism and revolutions were made inevitable by the abuse heaped on the majority by an aristocratic type government.



« Last Edit: May 16, 2021, 06:18:58 PM by The Thing »

SHARK

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #89 on: May 16, 2021, 07:21:37 PM »
Greetings!

Ahh. And LEFTTARDS that suck the ass of Socialism and Marxist "utopia" end up empowering a brutal, tyrannical regime where 95% of the population are crushed in misery and poverty and terror, ruled over by a fat, smug, evil elite that fancies themselves the "true leaders of society." Such "utopian" nightmares have been responsible for the greatest slaughter and tyranny, far more evil and wicked than any other kind of government in human history.

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