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Author Topic: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft  (Read 30310 times)

VisionStorm

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2021, 12:15:17 AM »
I gave up on WotC’s vision of Ravenloft after Curse of Strahd back in 2016. I haven’t heard anything to change my mind yet.  ;)

I gave up on WotC’s vision of D&D after they made Tieflings and Dragonborn fanfic official standard races back in 2008. I haven’t heard anything to change my mind yet.  :o

My lack of faith on anything else from them just flows from there... :P

Pat
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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2021, 12:36:24 AM »
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.
In addition to the maps, the atmosphere was good, and so was the the dynamic nature of key plot elements.

But otherwise, I mostly agree. It's overrated.

Omega

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2021, 02:48:07 AM »
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

I would not say its stupid. But its execution is... odd to say the least. Its an area intended to keep the PCs in there till the problem is solved. This is not like way Ghost Tower of Iverness were theres a deadline to get the job done and the PCs are convicts sent in to get said job done. Instead In Ravenloft the PCs are one way or another suckered into this prison realm and from then on its do-or-die.

The Ravenloft boxed sets campaign settings actually make more sense as its a super prison for the things within rather than a vexing prison for the PCs. Well ok it can be that too. But its almost incidental to keeping the whatevers locked up and frustrated as one adventurer group or another messes with their plans.

I think the original Ravenloft module gets alot more praise that it warrants. But it hied off into practically new territory and even now one can appreciate that.

Omega

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2021, 02:58:10 AM »
I gave up on WotC’s vision of D&D after they made Tieflings and Dragonborn fanfic official standard races back in 2008. I haven’t heard anything to change my mind yet.  :o

My lack of faith on anything else from them just flows from there... :P

Its an odd choice to be sure. But its better than WOTC inserting the Wrenn or other Alternity races as official core races. Just weird to see them in say Secrets of Saltmarsh as Greyhawk has a long running problem with demonic forces. So does Blackmoor for that matter.

Planescape made tieflings popular and no idea where Dragonborn come from. Prior to that everyone seemed to be ga-ga for half-dragons. ugh.

But at the end of the day the DM can prune the tree as little or as much as they want.
Humans only? Done.
Elf only? Done.
Tiefling only? Done.

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2021, 06:56:52 AM »
I think one of the mistakes of the Ravenloft setting as a whole was trying to make it have a "continent" with fixed borders. If you're in a weird demiplane, then it would be far more practical to have each realm be in its own space, and travelling through the mists would not reliably take you from one nation to the next. It would then have been random or up to the GM where the PCs moved/fled to.
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Darrin Kelley

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2021, 08:49:33 AM »
Planescape made tieflings popular and no idea where Dragonborn come from. Prior to that everyone seemed to be ga-ga for half-dragons. ugh.

Dragonborn came from the Draconians in Dragonlance. They have always been a set-up for a re-issue of that setting.
 

Armchair Gamer

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2021, 09:43:48 AM »
I think one of the mistakes of the Ravenloft setting as a whole was trying to make it have a "continent" with fixed borders. If you're in a weird demiplane, then it would be far more practical to have each realm be in its own space, and travelling through the mists would not reliably take you from one nation to the next. It would then have been random or up to the GM where the PCs moved/fled to.

  That's arguably a symptom of Ravenloft sort of falling between two stools--was it mean to be a standalone setting with a horror flavor, or was it meant to be the 'Twilight Zone' of D&D? The 1E modules may also have had an impact, with their tendency to be used as drop-ins. Early 2E material, 4E, and 5E have gone for the 'Twilight Zone' or 'Weekend in Hell' feel, while later 2E and 3E favored Ravenloft as a setting in itself.

Pat
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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2021, 09:44:33 AM »
I think one of the mistakes of the Ravenloft setting as a whole was trying to make it have a "continent" with fixed borders. If you're in a weird demiplane, then it would be far more practical to have each realm be in its own space, and travelling through the mists would not reliably take you from one nation to the next. It would then have been random or up to the GM where the PCs moved/fled to.
I really like the idea of a patchwork map. A significant amount of consistency keeps the weirdness but prevents Ravenloft from just becoming another Astral Plane, where everything is next to everything else. And once that's established, it makes sense within the setting as well. Realms may break off and the Mists may not always be reliable, but explorers are still going to try for their best guess at a map.

HappyDaze

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2021, 09:57:09 AM »
I think one of the mistakes of the Ravenloft setting as a whole was trying to make it have a "continent" with fixed borders. If you're in a weird demiplane, then it would be far more practical to have each realm be in its own space, and travelling through the mists would not reliably take you from one nation to the next. It would then have been random or up to the GM where the PCs moved/fled to.
IIRC,  they used that in 2e to explain why the domain borders were left open. Even undead dread lords felt the need to have trade between their domain and others. Oh, and the trade allowed for spies (byond the Vistani) so they could each keep track of what the others learned about escaping the demiplane. It never really felt fitting to the mood of the setting to me.

SHARK

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2021, 12:52:57 PM »
Greetings!

In reading commentary about the new *Woke* Ravenloft 5E, it strikes me as strange and childish why anyone would want to run a Ravenloft game as some kind of Disneyfied PG setting. We can't have a game about Gothic Horror be actually scary, or disturbing, or unsettling in any way--everyone has to giggle and feel safe. That just seems to entirely contradict the entire genre and purpose of Gothic Horror. If these people want safe spaces, why not just stick to playing the My Little Pony RPG?

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This Guy
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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2021, 01:06:30 PM »
i mean most of the gothic horror books from the actual period are all pretty dry so it's in keeping with the literature. unless you're scared shitless by a figure of a corpse behind a black veil, then by all means jack off to Mysteries of Udolpho and lament the sanitizing of the genre all you want.
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Ghostmaker

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2021, 01:35:28 PM »
Horror is general is kind of hard to do unless you're running a game specifically wired from the start for it.

I always had a bit of dislike for Ravenloft due to how common powers checks seemed to be for doing anything antisocial.

Meanwhile, throwing terrifying critters into a standard game can result in some darkly comic moments. My group had one of those where a gug tried to ambush us during a fight with yeth hounds. Unfortunately, the next PC to act after the gug arrived was my sorcerer, who promptly killed him with finger of death. Whoops. Hard to be horrifying when the PCs can wreck your shit.

(The joke for the rest of the campaign was that I had flipped the gug off and killed him that way.)

HappyDaze

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2021, 02:44:45 PM »
Greetings!

In reading commentary about the new *Woke* Ravenloft 5E, it strikes me as strange and childish why anyone would want to run a Ravenloft game as some kind of Disneyfied PG setting. We can't have a game about Gothic Horror be actually scary, or disturbing, or unsettling in any way--everyone has to giggle and feel safe. That just seems to entirely contradict the entire genre and purpose of Gothic Horror. If these people want safe spaces, why not just stick to playing the My Little Pony RPG?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Disney long ago Disneyfied stories like Cinderella,  Snow White, and the Little Mermaid. Their versions are generally well received. So don't be too surprised if others take the same route with something like Ravenloft because D&D isn't sacred and people are going to take it wherever they want.

Opaopajr

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2021, 04:37:29 PM »
I think one of the mistakes of the Ravenloft setting as a whole was trying to make it have a "continent" with fixed borders. If you're in a weird demiplane, then it would be far more practical to have each realm be in its own space, and travelling through the mists would not reliably take you from one nation to the next. It would then have been random or up to the GM where the PCs moved/fled to.
I really like the idea of a patchwork map. A significant amount of consistency keeps the weirdness but prevents Ravenloft from just becoming another Astral Plane, where everything is next to everything else. And once that's established, it makes sense within the setting as well. Realms may break off and the Mists may not always be reliable, but explorers are still going to try for their best guess at a map.

IIRC from comparing and contrasting the two 2e TSR box sets it was each a part:

a) keeping it different from the Astral as it is the Deep Ethereal and needed at least some narrative cohesion for its romanticised gothic horror (basically more grounded sense of space, less delirium or disassociation),

b) the realms were once more isolated and/or nebulously tied to each other before, but were becoming closer and more reliably tied together during the lead up to the Grand Conjunction -- basically a meta-narrative crescendo of six adventures which *could be* played in a specific order to affect its trajectory,

c) and it gave cause for the Dark Lords to target one another in an effort to get free or get intel or just general expansion of their crapulent personalities. This provided two things: an easing up of Dark Lord focus upon upcoming heroes to rub their nose in their Dark Powers' punishment again, and opened a metagame arc for cross-domain adventures beyond 1e's typical "weekend in hell."

Whether that was all communicated quickly enough to users is another story.  :-X But overall it was a priority shift to do larger things with the property as a cohesive patchwork setting. Again, not hard to ignore and revert back to form, let alone shuffle around which you are invited to do, (except cautioned about some effects to the Grand Conjunction six-adventure connected arc, if you care).
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Darrin Kelley

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2021, 04:50:36 PM »
Honestly? Ravenloft died for me the moment they gave it to White Wolf to do the 3e version.

Letting a company who stated that they hated D&D do a D&D product always was a non-starter for me.