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Author Topic: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft  (Read 30319 times)

VisionStorm

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2021, 05:23:11 PM »
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

I would not say its stupid. But its execution is... odd to say the least. Its an area intended to keep the PCs in there till the problem is solved. This is not like way Ghost Tower of Iverness were theres a deadline to get the job done and the PCs are convicts sent in to get said job done. Instead In Ravenloft the PCs are one way or another suckered into this prison realm and from then on its do-or-die.

The Ravenloft boxed sets campaign settings actually make more sense as its a super prison for the things within rather than a vexing prison for the PCs. Well ok it can be that too. But its almost incidental to keeping the whatevers locked up and frustrated as one adventurer group or another messes with their plans.

I think the original Ravenloft module gets alot more praise that it warrants. But it hied off into practically new territory and even now one can appreciate that.

I always hated the way that the demiplane acts as a prison that locks the PCs in, effectively preventing you from just doing casual Ravenloft adventures with an existing party without potentially turning it into a perpetual Ravenloft campaign forever that will always have to be about Ravenloft and nothing else henceforth.

I always liked the in-setting world elements surrounding castle Ravenloft (like the Vistani, etc.) more than the actual setting itself, and wished they had just made Strahd's homeworld the actual world for a full blown gothic setting. But instead they made it this patchwork of different disjointed lands that are just bundled together with little rhyme or reason.

Another thing I think would have been better was the idea of using the concept of the Demiplane of Dread in reverse, were rather than the demiplane dragging an entire land into itself, the "Dark Powers" arrive to land instead. Infecting it with dark energies and a perpetual shadow over the entire region that draws creatures of darkness to it, forcing champions from all over the land to travel to that region to confront those Dark Powers and bring an end to them.

Ghostmaker

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2021, 05:32:13 PM »
One of the ideas I had was to eliminate the Dark Powers entirely as a sapient force. The Demiplane of Dread acts as a kind of moral black hole, only permanently drawing in people who have permanently and irrevocably stained themselves with their acts.  Outside agents might be drawn into the Demiplane due to some form of planar conjunction or bad luck, but they're not truly trapped there unless they fall to corruption. Getting out might not be easy, but it's possible.

Reckall

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2021, 06:32:35 PM »
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.
In addition to the maps, the atmosphere was good, and so was the the dynamic nature of key plot elements.

But otherwise, I mostly agree. It's overrated.

Remember that Ravenloft came out in 1982. No one had ever seen something similar, back in the day. It was the first module, for example, to present isometric maps - all done by hand.

I ran it once and it was a fine experience. One example of how "different" it was is the attitude of the players. Somehow they thought that it was "a horror house" with the vampire as the end boss. The characters were very surprised to meet Strahd right in front of his castle, surrounded by a score of his minions, angrily asking them "What they were thinking?" The party was beaten very badly, regrouped in a nearby tavern, and the players understood that they were entering a new territory: one where intelligent monsters actually behaved realistically.
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mightybrain

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2021, 07:30:45 PM »
I recently re-read Bram Stoker's Dracula and it did strike me quite how much material there is in there; and how thin Ravenloft was by comparison. The journey on the ship alone would make a great session. I think the horror of Dracula stems from the idea that some ancient evil from the furthest reaches of civilisation could come to your homeland and prey on you and your family in your own homes.

Pat
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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2021, 07:39:25 PM »
I always hated the way that the demiplane acts as a prison that locks the PCs in, effectively preventing you from just doing casual Ravenloft adventures with an existing party without potentially turning it into a perpetual Ravenloft campaign forever that will always have to be about Ravenloft and nothing else henceforth.

...
Another thing I think would have been better was the idea of using the concept of the Demiplane of Dread in reverse, were rather than the demiplane dragging an entire land into itself, the "Dark Powers" arrive to land instead. Infecting it with dark energies and a perpetual shadow over the entire region that draws creatures of darkness to it, forcing champions from all over the land to travel to that region to confront those Dark Powers and bring an end to them.
I think treating the Demiplane of Dread as a prison is a great way to emphasize a lot of horror themes. You're trapped -- and you deserve it. The campaign arc should be about redemption or doom, where you either escape for doing something great (even if the escape involves death, it still counts as a moral victory), or you fall and will be there forever. It should involve temptation, expedience, moral judgments, and the opportunity to become a Dark Lord.

Note I transitioned from the rule that Ravenloft is a prison to a specific campaign structure. Which was quite deliberate -- I think the decision about whether Ravenloft is a trap should be decided at the campaign level, not the setting level. It makes perfect sense for some campaigns, but not at all for others. Making it a blanket rule was a mistake.

The example of Ravenloft as an incursion is another campaign structure. It's a compelling idea, which is probably why it's brought up fairly frequently. Introduce the mists, and have them serve as a trap until something key to the realm is resolved, and then they fade away and the realm returns to normal. You defeat Ravenloft by resolving the crux of why the Mists arrived in the first place, i.e. by dealing with the Darklord. And defeating them once doesn't destroy the Dark Powers, it just causes them to move on. They could be discovered again, later in the campaign. Or attracted by the actions of an NPC, or even a PC.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 08:08:12 PM by Pat »

Bedrockbrendan

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2021, 10:36:21 PM »
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.
In addition to the maps, the atmosphere was good, and so was the the dynamic nature of key plot elements.

But otherwise, I mostly agree. It's overrated.

Remember that Ravenloft came out in 1982. No one had ever seen something similar, back in the day. It was the first module, for example, to present isometric maps - all done by hand.

I ran it once and it was a fine experience. One example of how "different" it was is the attitude of the players. Somehow they thought that it was "a horror house" with the vampire as the end boss. The characters were very surprised to meet Strahd right in front of his castle, surrounded by a score of his minions, angrily asking them "What they were thinking?" The party was beaten very badly, regrouped in a nearby tavern, and the players understood that they were entering a new territory: one where intelligent monsters actually behaved realistically.

This was a concept they tried to carry into the line (in Feast of Goblyns they called it the Wandering Major Encounter). But basically meant villainous NPCs like this were treated as living characters who behaved organically.

Bedrockbrendan

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2021, 10:42:24 PM »
I think one of the mistakes of the Ravenloft setting as a whole was trying to make it have a "continent" with fixed borders. If you're in a weird demiplane, then it would be far more practical to have each realm be in its own space, and travelling through the mists would not reliably take you from one nation to the next. It would then have been random or up to the GM where the PCs moved/fled to.

It looks like they are going with having each domain be its own space in the new version. Personally I preferred the way it was in black box, red box and DoD: a core continent but also many isolated islands of terror surrounded by mist. The former worked well for having adventures that involved more travel or more varied locations, the latter were great for monster of the week (which Ravenloft excelled at). It seems some people are happy with the shift, some aren't. While I don't prefer this change, I am not baffled by it like I am about their other changes (I at least get why they did it, and even emulated the isolated islands myself in a horror thing I did).

One thing I always did, and something I really think they should encourage people to do, is map out my own version of Ravenloft. By its nature it is very amorphous so you can have new domains forming all the time, the core can shift, you can have multiple cores, you can break up the core into islands. It has kind of a dreamy quality that works for that kind of customization, and customization means the players will be less familiar with the campaign setting even if they have read the material.

I am going to stick with the 2E stuff, and mostly cleave to the black box, with some of the DoD stuff that I liked. I only play it once in a while these days anyways.

Bedrockbrendan

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2021, 10:46:07 PM »
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

I would not say its stupid. But its execution is... odd to say the least. Its an area intended to keep the PCs in there till the problem is solved. This is not like way Ghost Tower of Iverness were theres a deadline to get the job done and the PCs are convicts sent in to get said job done. Instead In Ravenloft the PCs are one way or another suckered into this prison realm and from then on its do-or-die.

The Ravenloft boxed sets campaign settings actually make more sense as its a super prison for the things within rather than a vexing prison for the PCs. Well ok it can be that too. But its almost incidental to keeping the whatevers locked up and frustrated as one adventurer group or another messes with their plans.

I think the original Ravenloft module gets alot more praise that it warrants. But it hied off into practically new territory and even now one can appreciate that.

I always hated the way that the demiplane acts as a prison that locks the PCs in, effectively preventing you from just doing casual Ravenloft adventures with an existing party without potentially turning it into a perpetual Ravenloft campaign forever that will always have to be about Ravenloft and nothing else henceforth.

I always liked the in-setting world elements surrounding castle Ravenloft (like the Vistani, etc.) more than the actual setting itself, and wished they had just made Strahd's homeworld the actual world for a full blown gothic setting. But instead they made it this patchwork of different disjointed lands that are just bundled together with little rhyme or reason.

Another thing I think would have been better was the idea of using the concept of the Demiplane of Dread in reverse, were rather than the demiplane dragging an entire land into itself, the "Dark Powers" arrive to land instead. Infecting it with dark energies and a perpetual shadow over the entire region that draws creatures of darkness to it, forcing champions from all over the land to travel to that region to confront those Dark Powers and bring an end to them.

There is a concept like this in ravenloft: conjunctions. Castle Ravenloft for example can just kind of show up in the mountains of your regular campaign world for a while during a conjunction. It isn't an expansive concept but no reason you couldn't' have a conjunction that spreads the way you are describing.

Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2021, 10:57:51 PM »
Disney long ago Disneyfied stories like Cinderella,  Snow White, and the Little Mermaid. Their versions are generally well received. So don't be too surprised if others take the same route with something like Ravenloft because D&D isn't sacred and people are going to take it wherever they want.

True, but Disney's changes were explicitly admitted to be changing the target demographic to kids and families; they never made the public case that anybody who preferred the original Grimm versions was morally obliged to like or approve of the changed versions.

Neither D&D nor its settings are sacred, but there comes a point where once you've changed something enough it's just not the original product any more, and it's disingenuous to market it as if it is. I like both T-bone steak and chicken cordon bleu, but I object if I order one and somebody serves me the other on the grounds they know what's better for me than I do.
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Ratman_tf

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2021, 11:08:52 PM »
I never liked the idea of the Demiplane of Dread. Part of the terror/horror comes from the supernatural intruding into the mortal realm.

If I were to run a Ravenloft campaign, my first step would be to set it on a prime material world.
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Omega

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2021, 01:09:48 AM »
I think one of the mistakes of the Ravenloft setting as a whole was trying to make it have a "continent" with fixed borders. If you're in a weird demiplane, then it would be far more practical to have each realm be in its own space, and travelling through the mists would not reliably take you from one nation to the next. It would then have been random or up to the GM where the PCs moved/fled to.

Try tried to Planescape it before Planescape.

Omega

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2021, 01:14:08 AM »
IIRC,  they used that in 2e to explain why the domain borders were left open. Even undead dread lords felt the need to have trade between their domain and others. Oh, and the trade allowed for spies (byond the Vistani) so they could each keep track of what the others learned about escaping the demiplane. It never really felt fitting to the mood of the setting to me.

Its that sort of Universal Monsters shared world thing like in the two "House of" movies.

Omega

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2021, 02:02:39 AM »
Greetings!

In reading commentary about the new *Woke* Ravenloft 5E, it strikes me as strange and childish why anyone would want to run a Ravenloft game as some kind of Disneyfied PG setting. We can't have a game about Gothic Horror be actually scary, or disturbing, or unsettling in any way--everyone has to giggle and feel safe. That just seems to entirely contradict the entire genre and purpose of Gothic Horror. If these people want safe spaces, why not just stick to playing the My Little Pony RPG?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Disney long ago Disneyfied stories like Cinderella,  Snow White, and the Little Mermaid. Their versions are generally well received. So don't be too surprised if others take the same route with something like Ravenloft because D&D isn't sacred and people are going to take it wherever they want.

Its a really old idea too. Some people just like to take something scary and turn it on its head and run with it. Sometimes for straightup comedy like Mad Monster Party, sometimes its still scary at times but its weirdly funny too like Monster Squad (the movie). Or they become some sort of superhero team like Monster Squad (TV series) or Drac Pack. etc.

It fails when you are trying to present a horror setting but the censors demand you remove anything... well... horrible.

Thats one thing Tomb of Annihilation had in spades surprisingly. Really horrible things in the tomb both subtle and blunt.

Omega

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2021, 02:08:03 AM »
I always hated the way that the demiplane acts as a prison that locks the PCs in, effectively preventing you from just doing casual Ravenloft adventures with an existing party without potentially turning it into a perpetual Ravenloft campaign forever that will always have to be about Ravenloft and nothing else henceforth.

They really should have just bit the bullet and made it its own setting rather than trying to omni-verse it. But TSR was really into that idea back then and thus we ge Ravenloft, Planescape and Spelljammer all as onmi-versal settings.

Bedrockbrendan

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Re: The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2021, 10:04:41 AM »
I started reading some of the articles on this more closely and looking more at the previews, this is definitely fire the old fans edition of Ravenloft. Maybe they know something I don't but it looks like WOTC is setting itself up for a repeat of the big 4E split, in the way that it is shaking off the whole 'bring the fans back together' approach. One strange design choice is they seem to not be including any stats for domain lords (it is possible this information is incorrect or not complete, as I have only seen it in one place). But the reasoning seems to be to encourage people to not have it be about fighting them. Which is fine if you want that, and often I like it when campaigns don't involve fighting domain lords, but lots of campaigns were built around Domain lord hunting, and eventually someone gets fed up and swings a sword at one. They already had baked in protection from the demi plane anyways (most were hard to kill, most required special circumstances to be permanently killed, etc). Between that, the safety tools, the hesitancy to engage horror, and the massive changes, this is just looking worse and worse