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Author Topic: The definitive Shadowrun  (Read 3139 times)

Shrieking Banshee

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The definitive Shadowrun
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2020, 11:43:49 PM »
Quote from: Spike;1137080
Look, I don't mean to be excessively glib and dismissive
No, you are. Be dismissive and glib, but don't be a passive-aggressive weasel about it.

Itachi

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The definitive Shadowrun
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2020, 11:55:09 PM »
Quote from: Spike
This is radically different in presentation, impact and form than something like Mutant:Year Zero
Oh yeah, got your point now. You're right.

Quote from: Spike
Except that Shadowrun does none of that. Megacorps have fallen and the truely scary GMPC characters (the greater Dragons) have also fallen.
...But not by shadowrunners. Megacorps and dragons have fallen to other big players or by internal conflicts. I don't think there's any plot or evidence of runners bringing down megacorps alone. The permanence of megacorps is what ties shadowrun to it's genre. You're not obliged to follow that, but then one may argue you're not really playing Shadowrun anymore if you purge one of it's defining elements. If I invited you for a Shadowrun game but with the caveat "..only in our table we destroyed most corps and now the world is a collectivist hippie paradise", I bet your first thought would be "this isn't Shadowrun anymore". Same for a Darksun game where "in out table we reverted the defiling magic and now the world is as green as Faerun", or a Planescape game where "...in our table we destroyed Sigil and the Outer Planes and spelljamming is the only planar travel method".

So Banshee is right that, if you wanna keep playing Shadowrun, the Megacorps must continue to exist.

EDIT: He's wrong about them being the only opposition, or the setting not having actionable/changeable aspects, though.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 12:27:27 AM by Itachi »

Shrieking Banshee

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« Reply #62 on: June 30, 2020, 12:26:04 AM »
Quote from: Itachi;1137087
So Banshee is right that, if you wanna keep playing Shadowrun, the Megacorps must continue to exist.

EDIT: He's wrong about them being the only opposition, or the setting not having actionable/changeable aspects, though.

What I mean is that I feel they are de-emphasized so much in 4th edition in what I read that it gave me the impression that they didn't exist.
By the time I got into the game all the 'Woah player impact' story elements had become cannonized and framed as corporate actions and not player actions (If they ever where player actions).
And from then on the plot largely spun its wheels with more boogeymen.

I see now there are more ways to run the game and more elements then just corporations. I still find the setting full of junk I dislike.

crkrueger

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The definitive Shadowrun
« Reply #63 on: June 30, 2020, 01:34:26 AM »
Shadowrun doesn't want you to change the world?  How would you define going on an Epic Quest in the metaplanes to prevent the Horrors from coming into the Shadowrun World a couple thousand years early when the magic would be too low for even the Great Dragons to be able to survive?  A literal Save the World adventure.

The problem with 99% of Shadowrun complaints I've found stems from ignorance of the game line’s actual contents.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

KingCheops

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« Reply #64 on: June 30, 2020, 11:29:47 AM »
Quote from: Itachi;1137076
I think your distaste for Shadowrun may be clouding your judgement here. See, all corebooks from all editions present various types of opposition besides corps - from organized crime to gangs, to local governments, policlubs, small companies and chains stores, rights activist groups, independent operators like fixers and johnsons, etc. And most present sample players in each category (The Ancients, Red Hot Nukes, Yakuza, Seoulpa Rings, Triads, Humanis Policlub, Tamanous, Stuffer Shack, Weapons World, Lone Star, Knight Errant, Metroplex Guard, Tir Ghosts, etc). And if you get any edition of the Seattle sourcebook that number will explode and you'll know how and where each operate.


How could you forget the biggest villains of all?  Those asshole synthpop poseurs down the block who keep stealing your awesome keytar riffs from your edgy post-punk industrial technorock opera band and putting them in corporate jingles!

Itachi

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The definitive Shadowrun
« Reply #65 on: June 30, 2020, 12:04:56 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137096
What I mean is that I feel they are de-emphasized so much in 4th edition in what I read that it gave me the impression that they didn't exist.
By the time I got into the game all the 'Woah player impact' story elements had become cannonized and framed as corporate actions and not player actions (If they ever where player actions).
And from then on the plot largely spun its wheels with more boogeymen.

I see now there are more ways to run the game and more elements then just corporations. I still find the setting full of junk I dislike.
If you take a look at adventures you'll see that the types of job, opposition and environment is all over the place. In Mercurial you're a bodyguard for a rockband tour, in Dreamchipper/Queen Euphoria/Universal Brotherhood players do investigator work, in the Mob War arc players work for the mafia/yakuza/seoulpa/etc, in Super Tuesday and Renraku Shutdown and Bug City you work for the government, etc. Each makes players change the setting status quo in some way by being successful in the respective adventures.

Where I think they could be better is in:

1) presenting multiple ramifications to the setting based on each adventure outcomes or runners choices. Unfortunately, most assume the players will do the adventures strictly as written and see the preset consequence in the end (though there are exceptions.. I think DNA/DOA does this).

2) modules that support players acting proactively instead of being pawns to big players. Ie: some situation in the Barrens where the group must step up and lead/manage/organize a local community to survive and thrive some threat; some small business where the group creates a company of bodyguarding/investigation/corp security assessment/etc; a module for the group doubling as a street gang racket-protecting the local neighbourhood; or a module for the group leading an organized campaign against a megacorp/government. There are modules that present new roles for players (like DocWagon or Lone Star) but those still make them pawns.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 12:22:48 PM by Itachi »

Shrieking Banshee

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« Reply #66 on: June 30, 2020, 12:40:25 PM »
Quote from: Itachi;1137206
There are modules that present new roles for players (like DocWagon or Lone Star) but those still make them pawns.

This is the part that gave me misgivings.

If I were to run the game, I would rework the central premises somewhat to be less contradictory to how I view things. Something like thor I would NEVER see a corporation owning. I could see them constructing something like it for a government, and having the pull to use it for their own ends (or having a secret backend control method), but I could never see it being something they could or would want to own.

I don't want to run a story where the Corporations have no power, I just want more dynamism and logic too said power.

Itachi

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« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2020, 01:20:09 PM »
While I agree the setting is full of absurd parts, the Thor weapons don't look absurd to me, if you remember the megacorps are the world new superpowers. If our current powers (USA, China, Russia, etc) have access to weapons of mass destruction, why wouldn't the future powers too?

Shrieking Banshee

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« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2020, 02:36:37 PM »
Quote from: Itachi;1137224
While I agree the setting is full of absurd parts, the Thor weapons don't look absurd to me, if you remember the megacorps are the world new superpowers.

Because I find the idea of corporate superpowers (Especially the way done in Shadowrun) to be dumb. Megacorps are to real corporations as Sauron is to real-world medieval tyrants. While I like Sauron, he exists more as a metaphorical embodiment of evil propelled by magic than a realistic character. Shadowrun's corporations are written to be more intimidating for the average reader and embody evil rather than have any sort of realistic grounding or logic.

It's like when people say 'WWII or FDR ended the great depression' without asking how or why. It's repeated so much it's just assumed.

KingCheops

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« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2020, 03:04:18 PM »
So you can suspend your disbelief for Sauron but not for megacorps.  I hate to break it to you but there is literally nothing for you in SR.  Thread closed?

Shrieking Banshee

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« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2020, 03:18:23 PM »
Quote from: KingCheops;1137245
I hate to break it to you but there is literally nothing for you in SR.  Thread closed?

How very presumptuous of you. You're saying 'If you don't like Megacorporations your not ALLOWED to like anything else in Shadowrun' which I find somewhat infantile.

KingCheops

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« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2020, 03:29:53 PM »
You've been acting like your namesake for 7 fucking pages and rejecting all arguments.  Yikes.

Shrieking Banshee

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« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2020, 03:39:30 PM »
Quote from: KingCheops;1137254
You've been acting like your namesake for 7 fucking pages and rejecting all arguments.  Yikes.

OK this is just puerile namecalling. I'm done.

Itachi

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« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2020, 03:49:29 PM »
Quote from: KingCheops;1137245
So you can suspend your disbelief for Sauron but not for megacorps.
Yeah, this.

Banshee, the corps embody SR themes as much as Sauron does for Middle Earth' ones. Humanity's greed, egotism, ruthlessness, etc.

Also, don5t know if it helps, but you must remember SR is a post-apocalyptic setting of sorts. In the awakening the world ended and began anew. Our telecom infra (including the internet) was rebuilt from scratch. The earth spilled lava and earthquakes everywhere. Wars ended countries. Pathogens killed millions. A third of the world population perished. My point being: the sixth world is not a continuation of ours, but a reset.

crkrueger

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« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2020, 04:06:28 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137239
Because I find the idea of corporate superpowers (Especially the way done in Shadowrun) to be dumb. Megacorps are to real corporations as Sauron is to real-world medieval tyrants. While I like Sauron, he exists more as a metaphorical embodiment of evil propelled by magic than a realistic character. Shadowrun's corporations are written to be more intimidating for the average reader and embody evil rather than have any sort of realistic grounding or logic.

It's like when people say 'WWII or FDR ended the great depression' without asking how or why. It's repeated so much it's just assumed.


So Corporations today don't have their own Communication satellites, their own intelligence operatives, their own security forces, their own Banks?  Of course they do.

You fail to understand, I think, what extraterritoriality means.  It doesn't mean that Corps get a large chunk of the geography and have to run it like a government.  It means they get certain areas, like embassies, where the laws of the resident country do not apply.  They're not burdened with any social programs, their entire "citizenry" are productive members of the corporate society, or they find themselves fired.  Many corporate citizens aren't even in extraterritorial housing, so the host government has to support them with police, fire, EMT, garbage, utilities, etc.  The Corps get the best of both worlds.  They get a workforce that no government laws can protect and the government in most cases have to still pick up the tab.

It's no different than getting cities to pick up the tab for stadiums or counties and states to pick up the tab for Amazon Distribution Centers, or at least pay for the privilege with tax breaks.  It's just a larger scale, because governments are weaker, and corporations are richer.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans