Quote from: Grognard GM on August 04, 2023, 11:05:17 PM
Sadly I've never had a chance to try the game. The closest I've probably gotten is some 2300AD (being that it's a hard sci-fi system).

I do remember an old magazine article (maybe early White Dwarf) with the rules for making a Blade Runner style Replicant for Traveller, which I thought was neat.

Here's the latest version (different name) for ~$9 for the PDF: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/415159/Cepheus-Deluxe-Enhanced-Edition?src=hottest_filtered

If you want a game with both high lethality (or at least high risk of death) as well as detailed backstories, what you might consider doing is getting the players attached to the backstory rather than the character. If/when the character dies, the backstory lives on as someone else takes up the mantle.

You already kind of alluded to this by saying Tim was Joe's brother, but it doesn't need to be quite on-the-nose with relationships. Maybe some great deed Joe did back in that village inspired someone, who became motivated to finish Joe's task after hearing of his death. Game Masters should then be encouraged to tie backstories with the main plot in order to keep everyone invested.

Short 2-3 line backgrounds are good, long backgrounds are bad.

Quote from: Effete on August 05, 2023, 01:38:27 AM
If you want a game with both high lethality (or at least high risk of death) as well as detailed backstories, what you might consider doing is getting the players attached to the backstory rather than the character. If/when the character dies, the backstory lives on as someone else takes up the mantle.

Not how we like to play.

My wife has a character whose goal is to become a tea trader. The character is sweet (and murderous), good with people, and not scheming. Her backup character hates tea, decided using psyker powers to control everyone made life boring, and is a functional psychopath. Her goal is to gain immortality with a cyborg body. Anything that advances that goal is OK with the character. The new character will help the group with their tea trading (they've already said if the tea character dies, they'll keep the trading going), because the new character wants the party to help her become immortal.

I think the problem is most players only play one character. In every game. In every system. Some minor details change based on setting and system. But if that character dies, they have no idea what to do.

Quote from: Effete on August 05, 2023, 01:38:27 AM
You already kind of alluded to this by saying Tim was Joe's brother, but it doesn't need to be quite on-the-nose with relationships. Maybe some great deed Joe did back in that village inspired someone, who became motivated to finish Joe's task after hearing of his death. Game Masters should then be encouraged to tie backstories with the main plot in order to keep everyone invested.

I think the whole tie backstories into the main plot is way overblown nowadays. I admire the GMs who can do it. But I don't personally find it necessary or even necessarily desirable.

The problems with the backstory/plot thing are

1. it's a lot more work for the GM. Some people will suggest either this isn't, or shouldn't, be true. But getting the backstories of four or five people to fit into the main plot, even sequentially, is a lot of work. It's even more work when you add in issues like the next point.

2. it makes running individual sessions with absences more of a problem. We've had sessions where the one person who could not make it was the one person with the skills to make that session work. Some of that is Traveller chargen chance and some of that is how the backstory/plot was written. But it also happens when someone can't make it and it is the big scene for their character's backstory/plot. (Makes it awkward.)


As a final note, I'll also say I don't necessarily find backgrounds and high lethality contradictions. If you put a lot of work into a character, then you're more likely to play rationally to keep it alive.

There is one caveat.

"High lethality" to me means that a character is easily killed. Assuming average stats (7?) a Traveller character has 21 HP. Most normal weapons can kill a character in 2 (2D or 3d) shots and any sort of actual combat weapon (5D and up) has a good chance of doing a one shot. If you choose inappropriately, you die. (Our party bends over backwards to avoid combat because of this.) Even then, there is some randomness. "Oh, the delicate character happened to be the only one in sight when the bad guys came through the door. Uh oh."

For me, "high lethality" should not mean a high death rate, regardless of what decisions the players make. I hate random, one-hit death in a lot of old school stuff. Why bother planning and making good decisions, if the GM is just going to randomly select someone to die anyway? (YMMV.) Now, if the party plays Traveller like they were in D&D5E, that's fine. They're going to all die.

And the thing that makes both playable and fun is making sure the players know what sort of game they're in for.

Quote from: Tod13 on August 06, 2023, 09:31:08 AM

Quote from: Effete on August 05, 2023, 01:38:27 AM
If you want a game with both high lethality (or at least high risk of death) as well as detailed backstories, what you might consider doing is getting the players attached to the backstory rather than the character. If/when the character dies, the backstory lives on as someone else takes up the mantle.

Not how we like to play.
<snip>

Oh, I agree! It's not something I personally would do either unless the game was specifically tailored to be run that way. But the OP asked for suggestions, so I gave one.

I've been reading this thread and wondering if i should contribute or just STFU.  I'll contribute and hopefully someone will find int valuable.

I've seen players create novellas for back stories and I think it's neat but useless.  A back story really only needs about a paragraph and should only have one significant life changing event.  That's at most.  A bare bones outline of what kind of PC you're making is really all that's needed in 99% of games.

First, the most significant events in a PC's life should be the ones being played out at the table.  A campaign should be taking an amateur and turning him into a seasoned vet.  This should inherently limit the back story right there.

It's one thing if you're playing a well established IP like Star Wars but most GMs I know create their own setting.  Unless you've been playing with a GM for a long time, you may not want to put in a lot of details that a GM has to try to make work with his setting.

I do a session 0 when running games.  If it's a new system, we'll do some Danger Room combat to get players used to it.  Mostly, it's about making PCs.  During PC creation,  I make players make 3 PCs.  I also work with players to weave them together with a common back story and to give them common goals.  With this, Players get invested not only in the PC but the party.

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 04, 2023, 11:05:17 PM

Quote from: Scooter on August 04, 2023, 08:15:35 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 04, 2023, 06:33:24 PM

Quote from: Scooter on August 04, 2023, 05:34:48 PM

You've never played Traveller?  Your PC has 10, 20, 30 years of background before you even get to play it.

And you can die DURING char gen! One can find no purer example of background complexity Venn overlap with lethality than that.

Exactly and last I checked it was one of the most played Sci-Fi RPGs in the history of TTRPGs

Sadly I've never had a chance to try the game. The closest I've probably gotten is some 2300AD (being that it's a hard sci-fi system).

I do remember an old magazine article (maybe early White Dwarf) with the rules for making a Blade Runner style Replicant for Traveller, which I thought was neat.

I recommend Hostile by Zozer Games if you're looking for a Cyberpunk/Bladerunner type game.  It's a slight tweak on Cepheus Engine that perfect for that king of play.  It's also my current favorite to run.  Otherwise, you can use Cepheus Engine with no investment at all by going to the online SRD here: https://www.orffenspace.com/cepheus-srd/index.html.  If you want a print version of it, I think that Moon Toad is the best for the table: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/237247/Cepheus-Engine-RPG.  As always, don't take a single opinion from me and do your own research.

Quote from: Theory of Games on August 04, 2023, 01:20:07 PM
If you don't like lethality why are you playing lethal rpgs? STUPIDSTUPIDSTUPID

Play something where YOU can decide when your Barbie kicks the bucket. I'm so fkn tired of people complaining about what D&D doesn't do as if there aren't hundreds of other rpgs out there. Some "less lethal" ttrpgs:

• FATE
• Cortex Prime
• Blades in the Dark
• Tenra Bansho Zero
• Wildsea
• Tales from the Loop
• Wanderhome
• Fabula Ultima
• Genesys
• HeroQuest

Because maybe I like everything else about a game, but not the assumed lethality of it?

Maybe because 9 of those 10 systems suck, and I like OSR-alikes a lot more than them?

Maybe because even I loved every one of them, my chance of finding someone else willing to play them is quite low?

I'm always amused by those notions of "you're playing the game wrong". I've always felt the rule even more prime than rule 0 is "if everyone is having fun, you're doing it right".

I found the optional Bleeding Out rule in TSR D&D perfectly serviceable: Death at -10 HP, counts down by -1 per Round from when initially dropped at Zero or below, anyone can Coup de Grace you as an action as usual, anyone can Stabilize you as an Action, you need to recover to positive HP to regain consciousness. Made hirelings, natural healing & herbalism, base camps, etc. very useful again.

I once added you needed to pass a Stabilize check at 50% success rate (e.g. 11+ on d20), but it was unnecessary drama (though the drama was fun!).

Quote from: Bruwulf on August 06, 2023, 02:21:00 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on August 04, 2023, 01:20:07 PM
If you don't like lethality why are you playing lethal rpgs? STUPIDSTUPIDSTUPID

Play something where YOU can decide when your Barbie kicks the bucket. I'm so fkn tired of people complaining about what D&D doesn't do as if there aren't hundreds of other rpgs out there. Some "less lethal" ttrpgs:

• FATE
• Cortex Prime
• Blades in the Dark
• Tenra Bansho Zero
• Wildsea
• Tales from the Loop
• Wanderhome
• Fabula Ultima
• Genesys
• HeroQuest

Because maybe I like everything else about a game, but not the assumed lethality of it?

Maybe because 9 of those 10 systems suck, and I like OSR-alikes a lot more than them?

Maybe because even I loved every one of them, my chance of finding someone else willing to play them is quite low?

I'm always amused by those notions of "you're playing the game wrong". I've always felt the rule even more prime than rule 0 is "if everyone is having fun, you're doing it right".

OR maaayyyybe you shouldn't play games you don't like then come here to post one's feckless idiotic complaints about a situation a child could avoid? Maybe you could find some friends via the internet that like playing games you like? I did decades ago 



Maybe? Maybe?

Quote from: Theory of Games on August 07, 2023, 09:38:06 PM
Maybe you could find some friends via the internet that like playing games you like? I did decades ago 

Based on your personality here, I'm going to press "x" to doubt...

Quote from: Opaopajr on August 06, 2023, 02:32:54 PM
I found the optional Bleeding Out rule in TSR D&D perfectly serviceable: Death at -10 HP, counts down by -1 per Round from when initially dropped at Zero or below, anyone can Coup de Grace you as an action as usual, anyone can Stabilize you as an Action, you need to recover to positive HP to regain consciousness. Made hirelings, natural healing & herbalism, base camps, etc. very useful again.

I once added you needed to pass a Stabilize check at 50% success rate (e.g. 11+ on d20), but it was unnecessary drama (though the drama was fun!).

Soooo much better than 5e death saves.

Quote from: Opaopajr on August 06, 2023, 02:32:54 PM
I found the optional Bleeding Out rule in TSR D&D perfectly serviceable: Death at -10 HP, counts down by -1 per Round from when initially dropped at Zero or below, anyone can Coup de Grace you as an action as usual, anyone can Stabilize you as an Action, you need to recover to positive HP to regain consciousness. Made hirelings, natural healing & herbalism, base camps, etc. very useful again.

I once added you needed to pass a Stabilize check at 50% success rate (e.g. 11+ on d20), but it was unnecessary drama (though the drama was fun!).

Opaopajr,

Isn't that the 3.x method? (Except Stabilize is 10%)

Quote from: Aglondir on August 07, 2023, 11:59:10 PM
Opaopajr,

Isn't that the 3.x method? (Except Stabilize is 10%)

"Hovering on Death's Door" optional rule is from AD&D 1e & 2e DMG, IIRC. Yes, just sourced AD&D 2e DMG, it's on p. 105 under Character Death section. So at least from there.

It also wipes spells from memory. Cure only gets you to 1 HP and you can barely function. Heal can get you more HP, and allows you "full vitality & wits" (but again spells memorized are lost). That's a powerful cost to casters!

It sounds like 3e carried it over.  It was a pretty popular optional rule.

Maybe it is time to just address the elephant in the room and break the hard news. IT'S A GAME!!!  Do you cry and throw a pity party when your bishop gets taken in chess? Back when I first started with Holmes and B/X we sometimes wouldn't even name a character until 2nd level. Backgrounds were something that developed during play if your character survived. We were just kids, and watched as our characters were hacked, mangled, and eaten by gelatinous cubes. We laughed and rolled up another character. We didn't bother with backgrounds before play. Every character was just a nobody until a name and reputation were established through actual play. Then the backstory meant something because it was something the group could relate to. No one wanted to hear about a character's sob story about why they ended up as a nobody adventurer, and we certainly didn't have time to listen to someone drone on and on about their fantastic and unbelievable exploits that they did before becoming a nobody first level character, like this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoO2eI9IioE&list=PLSMETuURtTXBIBTJzA7p9v_2RO_O2BXIs&index=3

So the facts of D&D are:

Adventuring is a full contact sport

You are nothing special until proven to be

Be proud should you attain fame & fortune. Many try but few succeed. You will more than likely be dead at the bottom of a pit before that ever happens.

Character death is common. Get over it. It's frikkin game.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 08, 2023, 08:51:44 AM
Maybe it is time to just address the elephant in the room and break the hard news. IT'S A GAME!!!  Do you cry and throw a pity party when your bishop gets taken in chess? Back when I first started with Holmes and B/X we sometimes wouldn't even name a character until 2nd level.

It is the last couple generations.  Snowflakes.  Jr. H.S. dodge-ball is considered by them to be as bad as real military, life & death combat.