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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Shasarak on November 03, 2019, 09:39:30 PM

Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Shasarak on November 03, 2019, 09:39:30 PM
I thought there would be people here who may be interested in knowing how stressful it is to moderate RPG Net.

Spoiler: It is very stressful.


RPG Historian Shannon Appelcline Told to Cease & Desist by TSR- Ep.166 (http://plotpoints.libsyn.com/rpg-historian-shannon-appelcline-told-to-cease-desist-by-tsr-ep166)
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Bren on November 03, 2019, 10:05:49 PM
Moderating RPGNet is stressful? Well so is posting. I guess Shannon is just the kind of giving person who wants to share with others. Though I'd be happier if what Shannon was sharing with me was the money instead of the stress.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: The_Shadow on November 04, 2019, 12:07:17 AM
Anyone recall how they made an exception to their rule about "no group attacks" for attacks on members of ICE? That meant not only criticism of ICE policy or certain actions was OK, but just any attacks on any employees was OK. And they stickied the new rule exception just so everyone knew. Classy.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: HappyDaze on November 04, 2019, 12:16:32 AM
Quote from: The_Shadow;1112902
Anyone recall how they made an exception to their rule about "no group attacks" for attacks on members of ICE? That meant not only criticism of ICE policy or certain actions was OK, but just any attacks on any employees was OK. And they stickied the new rule exception just so everyone knew. Classy.

Since this is the games forum, I was thinking you were talking about Iron Crown Enterprises. Silly me.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: The_Shadow on November 04, 2019, 12:36:02 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1112904
Since this is the games forum, I was thinking you were talking about Iron Crown Enterprises. Silly me.

Fair enough! Nope, not the venerable games publisher.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: thedungeondelver on November 04, 2019, 01:31:41 AM
I thought I could get through some of it but I had to shut that off pdq
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Fergurg on November 04, 2019, 02:03:23 AM
Quote from: The_Shadow;1112902
Anyone recall how they made an exception to their rule about "no group attacks" for attacks on members of ICE? That meant not only criticism of ICE policy or certain actions was OK, but just any attacks on any employees was OK. And they stickied the new rule exception just so everyone knew. Classy.

I remember the wording of the new rule: "New policy: Fuck ICE! Fuck anyone who doesn't fuck ICE!"
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Melan on November 04, 2019, 04:45:10 AM
Quote from: Shasarak;1112895
I thought there would be people here who may be interested in knowing how stressful it is to moderate RPG Net.

Spoiler: It is very stressful.
No surprises, they have been complaining about the stress of moderating ever since... hum, ever since they tightened up moderation into the current bureaucratic nightmare? So more than thirteen years. The mods have been burned out, testy, and feeling put upon. Some have burned out altogether and abdicated (horrormod Darren McLellan), while some (like Cessna) are just constantly frustrated about Having To Do Hard Decisions. It gets brought up as a conversation topic every now and then, but nothing happens, and the cycle continues.

There should be no surprise. A petty, bureaucratic system of repression breeds stress, burnout, and resentment; and nowhere more so than among the bureaucrats doing the unending work of repression. The obsessive pedantry and over-regulation of discussion on RPGNet, the periodic, convulsive purging of wrong-thinkers (by now almost exclusively hard leftists themselves) naturally produces a nasty, unpleasant environment nobody really enjoys. Welcome to communism. Remember: this time, you wanted it.

"History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce." -- Karl Marx, austere atheist scholar
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Omega on November 04, 2019, 05:49:59 AM
I doubt they know what real stress from real moderation even is.

I've been a moderator/admin for a RP site for a long time now and have unfortunately had to deal with some things that ended up being stressful for one reason or another. Especially if it involved possibly having to delete someones account. Like being a judge in court but having usually only bits of detail and player A's claim vs player Bs. Or having to read through event logs and sort out who did what or if they did anything at all.

And that is before getting to the absolute sociopaths that I have had to deal with. Several of which I was never able to put a real stop to as they just moved to other venues and are appallingly good at deflecting suspicion and infiltrating groups.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: SirBercelak on November 04, 2019, 02:36:54 PM
Quote from: Melan;1112917
...

"History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce." -- Karl Marx, austere atheist scholar


LOL. I'm going to borrow that description for future discussions of the man.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Haffrung on November 04, 2019, 03:56:37 PM
I wonder if it occurs to Appelcine to ask himself why an RPG forum is so stressful to moderate and why it requires so many mods. I've seen other forums with thousands of active users that seem to manage with three or four part-time mods, and where suspensions happen maybe once a month.

I suppose it would be too much to expect that the people at RPGNet recognize that it's politics, and not gaming, that makes the site so contentious. And that they're the ones who chose to make the forums political.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: GeekEclectic on November 04, 2019, 05:55:49 PM
Quote from: Haffrung;1112971
I wonder if it occurs to Appelcine to ask himself why an RPG forum is so stressful to moderate and why it requires so many mods. I've seen other forums with thousands of active users that seem to manage with three or four part-time mods, and where suspensions happen maybe once a month.
I was a moderator at what at the time was the largest specifically theological and political forum on the net, and it was so easy. Rules were clear and concise(no labyrinthine maze of traps to navigate). Chain of command was super clear, individual mods were assigned to specific areas(not given free reign of the entire thing), and moderators were absolutely not allowed to moderate threads they were personally participating in. New members were specially welcomed, reports were addressed, and appeals were ruled on - all in a very timely manner. Forum moderation can be time-consuming, especially depending on any extra bells and whistles you want to provide, but it's not hard.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: JeremyR on November 04, 2019, 09:03:04 PM
Quote from: The_Shadow;1112902
Anyone recall how they made an exception to their rule about "no group attacks" for attacks on members of ICE? That meant not only criticism of ICE policy or certain actions was OK, but just any attacks on any employees was OK. And they stickied the new rule exception just so everyone knew. Classy.


That rule was never really enforced depending on politics. I got permabanned there years ago because I complained that a thread calling Americans dumb for liking Hollywood movies was a group attack. (And also wrong, because many of the really dumb movies, like Battleship, are way more popular overseas than in the US)
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Melan on November 05, 2019, 12:51:59 AM
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1112989
I was a moderator at what at the time was the largest specifically theological and political forum on the net, and it was so easy. Rules were clear and concise(no labyrinthine maze of traps to navigate). Chain of command was super clear, individual mods were assigned to specific areas(not given free reign of the entire thing), and moderators were absolutely not allowed to moderate threads they were personally participating in. New members were specially welcomed, reports were addressed, and appeals were ruled on - all in a very timely manner. Forum moderation can be time-consuming, especially depending on any extra bells and whistles you want to provide, but it's not hard.
Was that in 1997? :DMore seriously, I wonder if you could still create and maintain a place like that. Bad-faith arguments tend to be the norm these days (even here, to be honest), and deliberately attacking and destroying "moderate" grounds seems to be the norm. Few people want Tanelorn; it is all Law or Chaos.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Omega on November 05, 2019, 02:37:27 AM
I think alot of normal fora have been gradually destroyed, co-opted or members 'converted' to the cause. Partially because these so called activists see them as fertile breeding grounds for more cultists once you take over. One of those sociopaths I noted above would systematically infiltraite a site and then over time gather enough followers to run off anyone he didn't approve of. Which in many cases meant the death of the site as that meant running off artists and writers who liked to cover multiple themes and suddenly found themselves under attack for doing anything related to a hated theme. And if he could not do that then he'd have members of his little hate group enter a site covertly and then just gather names of members so they could be banned from other sites they did control. And this has been going on for at least two and a half decades.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: sureshot on November 05, 2019, 06:58:55 AM
My response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdofmoYcJNE

They dug their own hole and insist on digging it deeper. The rpg.net mods have no sympathy for me. They made their own lives a living hell and become power hungry and triggered and offended by everything. Fuck them collectively. It's reaching a point where the amount of infractions on the forums is become a running joke.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: crkrueger on November 05, 2019, 10:10:49 AM
Quote from: Omega;1113013
I think alot of normal fora have been gradually destroyed, co-opted or members 'converted' to the cause. Partially because these so called activists see them as fertile breeding grounds for more cultists once you take over. One of those sociopaths I noted above would systematically infiltraite a site and then over time gather enough followers to run off anyone he didn't approve of. Which in many cases meant the death of the site as that meant running off artists and writers who liked to cover multiple themes and suddenly found themselves under attack for doing anything related to a hated theme. And if he could not do that then he'd have members of his little hate group enter a site covertly and then just gather names of members so they could be banned from other sites they did control. And this has been going on for at least two and a half decades.


This right here can not be overstated.  Prior to the Internet, running into a Social Predator, ie, someone with severe narcissistic personality disorder, sociopathy or outright functional psychopathy was rare, and while unpleasant, could be avoided by changing jobs, moving, etc.

Now with the Internet, these people can infect multiple communities online, Left or Right, and play their games of domination and control.  Even worse, the entire social media sphere seems tailor-made for these people to thrive.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Armchair Gamer on November 05, 2019, 11:00:21 AM
Whether it's a deliberate attempt at creating a 'breeding ground' or not, RPGNet does seem to demonstrate the problems with trying to impose a uniform mode of thinking on a large, previously existing, heterogenous community.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Haffrung on November 05, 2019, 11:17:12 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;1113026
Now with the Internet, these people can infect multiple communities online, Left or Right, and play their games of domination and control.  Even worse, the entire social media sphere seems tailor-made for these people to thrive.

Pretty much. The tribalism of social media - especially the kind fostered by the moronic American culture wars - means people will stay silent and tolerate total assholes so long as the total asshole is in their tribe. And even when the total assholes starts picking off people on their own tribe they'll stay silent because they don't want to become the next target. It really is remarkable that people are so desperate for the sense of identity and security that a tribe offers that they'll put up with that shit.

Appelcline can play the aggrieved victim all he likes, but the unrelenting stress he moans about is his own fault. If you enthusiastically leap into a culture war, you're going to get bashed around. What I find curious is that independent thinking isn't all that uncommon in the real world. So why is partisanship dominant on social media? Why is it so rare to find site owners and mods who are non-partisan and moderate?
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Toadmaster on November 05, 2019, 12:22:28 PM
Quote from: Haffrung;1113033
What I find curious is that independent thinking isn't all that uncommon in the real world. So why is partisanship dominant on social media? Why is it so rare to find site owners and mods who are non-partisan and moderate?

It is easy to move and avoid / seek conflict on the internet. Not so much in the real world. That ease of movement makes it much easier to find a group think bubble that suits you and confirms your world view. Most people don't enjoy conflict, so once a site begins to shift towards a certain world view it will generally accelerate in that direction if uncorrected as "the other side" abandon or are removed from the site.

I've found sites that firmly employ no politics rules tend to be accused of being biased by "both sides". It can be amusing to see a poster rage quit "this liberal cesspool" and the following week another announces their leaving the "rightwing dictatorship". Meanwhile 99% of the posters are happy to keep talking cars and tools, coffee, the proper form of bikini chainmail or what have you.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Omega on November 05, 2019, 11:55:15 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1113029
Whether it's a deliberate attempt at creating a 'breeding ground' or not, RPGNet does seem to demonstrate the problems with trying to impose a uniform mode of thinking on a large, previously existing, heterogenous community.

BGG too. It wants to be RPG.net. Only far worse as they have pervaded all levels of board gaming and if they were not so inept and contemptuous of RPGs, would have that too as they became a haven for Forge fanatics and Pundits Swine before being overtaken slowly by the SJW cult.

They allready ban you over there for calling someone a troll, or for mentioning you have someone on ignore, or for alot of other things. Yet allow eurogamers to toss around a racial slur, ameritrash, at any non-euro-game.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: The_Shadow on November 05, 2019, 11:58:16 PM
Quote from: Omega;1113075
Yet allow eurogamers to toss around a racial slur, ameritrash, at any non-euro-game.

Well, American is not a race, no? At worst, a nationality-based slur. And like most such, this used to be uttered with tongue-in-cheek as acceptable ribbing.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: tenbones on November 06, 2019, 10:52:42 AM
Quote from: Omega;1113075
They allready ban you over there for calling someone a troll, or for mentioning you have someone on ignore, or for alot of other things. Yet allow eurogamers to toss around a racial slur, ameritrash, at any non-euro-game.

LOL "ameritrash".

I like that. RPGnet is living proof of it. Yeah this isn't racial - this is just pointing out the obvious. But I don't think it's intended for the right targets. But whatever - RPGnet are hypocrites, water is wet, grass is usually green. etc.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Haffrung on November 06, 2019, 11:19:21 AM
Quote from: Omega;1113075
Yet allow eurogamers to toss around a racial slur, ameritrash, at any non-euro-game.

Ameritrash is not a term used by Eurogamers to denigrate Americans. It's a self-deprecating term used by people who play Ameritrash games to describe the games they love. Hundreds of members on BGG proudly display Ameritrash user badges. A website devoted to reviewing and promoting those sorts of games calls itself Fortress Ameritrash.

I've explained this to you five or six times. The only people who think Ameritrash is a slur are humourless snowflakes.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Omega on November 06, 2019, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: The_Shadow;1113076
Well, American is not a race, no? At worst, a nationality-based slur. And like most such, this used to be uttered with tongue-in-cheek as acceptable ribbing.

No it wasnt. Its allways been derogatory.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: tenbones on November 06, 2019, 03:08:11 PM
I confess it might just be me... I don't feel degraded.

American trash is pretty high-quality shit, relatively speaking.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Joey2k on November 06, 2019, 03:14:24 PM
Quote from: Omega;1113122
No it wasnt. Its allways been derogatory.


*sigh* As you've been told many, many times, you are very much in the minority in thinking this way.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: DELETE THIS on November 06, 2019, 04:52:59 PM
Quote from: Joey2k;1113145
*sigh* As you've been told many, many times, you are very much in the minority in thinking this way.

It's my understanding the Eurotards called it Ameritrash, and the people who liked those sorts of games wore it as a badge of honor. So yeah, it was intended to be derogatory, but the intended victims didn't give a fuck.

That said, Eurotard boardgames (at least a lot of them) have so little to do mechanically with the themes they employ I find them hard to enjoy. Catan and Ticket to Ride being notable exceptions.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Omega on November 06, 2019, 10:17:42 PM
Quote from: Brad;1113158
It's my understanding the Eurotards called it Ameritrash, and the people who liked those sorts of games wore it as a badge of honor.

No a small group of morons decided to "embrace it" which just allowed these eurofucks to carry on insulting everyone.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: The_Shadow on November 07, 2019, 01:44:17 AM
Quote from: Omega;1113186
No a small group of morons decided to "embrace it" which just allowed these eurofucks to carry on insulting everyone.

Also, damn those idiots who decided to embrace the term "Gothic" when snooty Latin speakers criticised their new-fangled cathedrals as barbaric!
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: ElBorak on November 07, 2019, 04:31:41 AM
I find it hilarious that the phrase "The Brains" is used to describe "Shannon Appelcline". Now that is an oxymoron. Of course it is not quite as bad as calling him an RPG historian.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Kyle Aaron on November 07, 2019, 09:45:15 PM
Bullshit.

I'm a moderator on bodybuilding.com. That's a site who had a guy CandyJunkie livestream his suicide and people said, "do it, phaggot." It's a site which had to answer subpoenas from the FBI because Elliot Rodgers posted there as SupremeGentleman.

That is, the site I help moderate has had suicides and murders. And it's not that stressful, mostly just annoying and boring dealing with clunky old software that doesn't work and whingeing members.

Bullshit, Applecline. Bullshit.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Haffrung on November 08, 2019, 02:12:05 PM
I think what Applecline means is it's very stressful for him to have to deal with people who think differently than he does. So distressing that everybody doesn't simply agree.

The authoritarian mind sees the wider world as a scary and unpleasant place.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: remial on November 09, 2019, 04:42:04 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;1113026
Now with the Internet, these people can infect multiple communities online, Left or Right, and play their games of domination and control.  Even worse, the entire social media sphere seems tailor-made for these people to thrive.

well, yeah, that's the kind of people who created them in the first place...
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: SavageSchemer on November 09, 2019, 07:50:56 AM
Quote from: Haffrung;1113345
I think what Applecline means is it's very stressful for him to have to deal with people who think differently than he does. So distressing that everybody doesn't simply agree.

So much so that a simple web forum apparently needs almost as many (mentally ill) moderators as there are actual users on the site.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Melan on November 09, 2019, 12:28:48 PM
Quote from: Haffrung;1113345
I think what Applecline means is it's very stressful for him to have to deal with people who think differently than he does. So distressing that everybody doesn't simply agree.

The authoritarian mind sees the wider world as a scary and unpleasant place.
This seems to be the defining pattern of the decade. Narrow sects at one another's throat, each with its screaming ayatollahs - and over the pettiest issues one could imagine.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Omega on November 09, 2019, 01:21:58 PM
Its allways over something insane. Or it starts off allmost reasonable but once they have the foot in the door the demands escalate because no matter what you do it is never enough. Or they were just pretending it was a simple demand when the goal was something insane all along.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Kyle Aaron on November 09, 2019, 07:04:22 PM
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1113409
So much so that a simple web forum apparently needs almost as many (mentally ill) moderators as there are actual users on the site.
Tangency. Misc. Off Topic. The Off Topic section is always what causes the drama on a discussion forum, always. It attracts people with no interest in the topic of the site, and becomes larger than the rest combined, and arguments ensue, and rules must be made, and rules must be policed, and then rules argued over, and so on. Which means new mods.

And some of the new mods will be people who were enthusiastic participants in that off topic section, and who themselves have no interest in the topic of the site, so that if you suggest simply binning the section, they defend it hysterically. And the owners of the site see the viewcounts and get terrified of losing that, even though the people in the off topic section never buy anything.

As the off topic grows to absorb the entire site, people actually interested in the topic wander in, look around, and then leave. And viewcounts to the site decline, so that any suggestion of binning off topic is more hysterically reacted to. "But we're already declining!"

And so it goes on.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: RPGPundit on November 16, 2019, 03:51:01 AM
Yeah it must be very stressful to ban all those people for wrongthink.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Omega on November 16, 2019, 07:12:25 AM
The stress is more like fallout from all the bannings rather than the act of banning. Lots of fallout.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: RandyB on November 16, 2019, 09:37:44 AM
The stress is from continually coming into direct contact with wrongthink. "Why can't they just shut up and die already?" Never mind that the definition of "wrongthink" changes on an hourly basis.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: soltakss on November 16, 2019, 04:07:36 PM
Quote from: Omega;1113186
No a small group of morons decided to "embrace it" which just allowed these eurofucks to carry on insulting everyone.


Which is more insulting, Ameritrash or eurofucks?
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: ArrozConLeche on November 16, 2019, 09:59:48 PM
Poor fucking baby. Better buy him something to suck on (https://www.amazon.ca/SC-Novelties-Penis-Pacifier/dp/B00HMC7UVG).
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Omega on November 17, 2019, 04:13:10 AM
Quote from: soltakss;1114113
Which is more insulting, Ameritrash or eurofucks?

Which is being used in gaming and which is not? Thats right. No one called eurogames eurotrash.
Try again please.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: soltakss on November 17, 2019, 03:41:11 PM
Quote from: Omega;1114130
Try again please.

Okidoky.

Quote from: Omega;1114130
Which is being used in gaming and which is not? Thats right. No one called eitogames eurotrash.

I have seen Eurotrash, it was a really funny TV Series, so I assumed that Ameritrash was the American equivalent. I haven't heard either being referred to gaming, although Eurotrash has been around for years.

Presumably, Amerifucks is the equivalent to eurofucks?
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Dan Davenport on November 17, 2019, 08:53:15 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1113440
Tangency. Misc. Off Topic. The Off Topic section is always what causes the drama on a discussion forum, always. It attracts people with no interest in the topic of the site, and becomes larger than the rest combined, and arguments ensue, and rules must be made, and rules must be policed, and then rules argued over, and so on. Which means new mods.

And some of the new mods will be people who were enthusiastic participants in that off topic section, and who themselves have no interest in the topic of the site, so that if you suggest simply binning the section, they defend it hysterically. And the owners of the site see the viewcounts and get terrified of losing that, even though the people in the off topic section never buy anything.

As the off topic grows to absorb the entire site, people actually interested in the topic wander in, look around, and then leave. And viewcounts to the site decline, so that any suggestion of binning off topic is more hysterically reacted to. "But we're already declining!"

And so it goes on.


Having seen this process from the inside, I have to say that your analysis is entirely correct.

Back in the day, Tangency made some kind of sense as a sewer to drain off the off-topic posts that were clogging up the on-topic section. Unfortunately, there was no way to flush the sewer, and the backlog of filth flooded the whole damn site with political advocacy and labyrinthine rules and regulations.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: David Johansen on November 17, 2019, 10:10:57 PM
Media discussion should have stayed in open.  Just try to tie it back to the gaming thing and it's fine.  I'm okay with media where it is in its own forum but really it gets rid of any useful media and gaming type discussion.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: sureshot on November 17, 2019, 11:25:51 PM
Quote from: Dan Davenport;1114146
Back in the day, Tangency made some kind of sense as a sewer to drain off the off-topic posts that were clogging up the on-topic section. Unfortunately, there was no way to flush the sewer, and the backlog of filth flooded the whole damn site with political advocacy and labyrinthine rules and regulations.

It's not helped that the Mods became power hungry, amoral suddenly Woke tyrants either. The best analogy I have is the guards not only letting the inmates run the asylum they joined the inmates. Tha or many were simply social chameleons bidding their time just waiting to be put in a position of power. Once in power revealed their true natures. It's like some posters who come here starting threads and wanting validation because of something that happened at another forum or in real life. Then two weeks later return claiming that this place is shit, we are all Alt-Reich jerks and this forum is the worst EVER!. While totally ignoring the how truly terrible other places like the TBP. Fortunately the social chameleons that used to come here either left or are bidding their time just waiting to return.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Kyle Aaron on November 18, 2019, 12:47:04 AM
Quote from: sureshot;1114156
It's not helped that the Mods became power hungry, amoral suddenly Woke tyrants either.
If it'd not been woke philosophy, it would have been something else.

All the drama of an Off Topic section leads to people hitting the report button for anything and everything, which begs for rules, which have gaps in them so are followed by rulings, and the tiniest ideological slant one way causes lots of its supporters to flood in from across the internet, dragging it further that way, and so on.

It could as easily have been communist or fascist or christian or whatever. On rpg.net it's wokesterism, on bodybuilding.com it's 8chan lite, and so on. Once an Off Topic section was allowed to dominate the site, some ideology or other was bound to take control. That's just the nature of online discourse.

An Off Topic section works alright here because it's a minority of the site as a whole, and it's tightly controlled by arbitrary whim. If it were allowed to grow it'd dominate the site and we'd become as retarded as rpg.net or bodybuilding.com, just with a different ideological slant.

If two people both like topic X, but argue over Y, then the likelihood of their getting along depends on how much they talk about X vs Y. I have gaming friends with whom I would not get along with terribly well if we talked about non-gaming subjects. Indeed, we might need a moderator for our discussions, and rules, lest we come to blows. When we stick to gaming we're fine.

Likewise fitness and other topics I'm interested in. Which is why any Off Topic section being allowed to dominate a discussion forum will ultimately fuck it all up. We're brought together by our love of gaming, and pushed apart by other things: which should we focus on discussions on?

It's not the wokesterism, as retarded as that is. It's having Off Topic sections dominate things. It never goes well. Never.

Note: I have been removed as a mod at bodybuilding.com. No reason was given, but I had previously clashed with the admins (who moaned self-pityingly just as much as Applecline et al) saying that really we'd be better off getting rid of the Misc (off topic) section, which probably didn't help. Who's left to mod? Those in favour of the Misc, and those who swing alt-right. And so the site continues on its journey to being 8chan lite.

Being a moderator is not a difficult job, but you can make it more difficult for yourself than it need be by letting your Off Topic section dominate the site.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Omega on November 18, 2019, 06:40:23 AM
Quote from: sureshot;1114156
It's not helped that the Mods became power hungry, amoral suddenly Woke tyrants either. The best analogy I have is the guards not only letting the inmates run the asylum they joined the inmates. Tha or many were simply social chameleons bidding their time just waiting to be put in a position of power. Once in power revealed their true natures. It's like some posters who come here starting threads and wanting validation because of something that happened at another forum or in real life. Then two weeks later return claiming that this place is shit, we are all Alt-Reich jerks and this forum is the worst EVER!. While totally ignoring the how truly terrible other places like the TBP. Fortunately the social chameleons that used to come here either left or are bidding their time just waiting to return.

Ive seen this on alot of fora and non-fora groups too. It usually starts because the real admin of the site don't want to admin and start appointing others to do it. And nigh invariably they for some crackheaded reason give these people near total power over the fora and the ability to appoint others mods. It tends to go to hell within a year of that. Sometimes faster. Sometimes slower. And every damn time the admin respond to problems and rampant abuse with "its not my problem!" The fuck it isnt your problem. You run the site and these moderators are ruining it!

As for RPG.net. I think if Shannon gave the axe to tangency, and the worst of the mods, and laid down some real rules of conduct that weren't agenda driven. The fora might rise up again.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Bren on November 18, 2019, 10:21:18 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1114159
If it'd not been woke philosophy, it would have been something else.
Good analysis. I think you really have something here.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Snark Knight on November 20, 2019, 06:13:55 PM
Quote from: Omega;1114169
Ive seen this on alot of fora and non-fora groups too. It usually starts because the real admin of the site don't want to admin and start appointing others to do it. And nigh invariably they for some crackheaded reason give these people near total power over the fora and the ability to appoint others mods. It tends to go to hell within a year of that. Sometimes faster. Sometimes slower. And every damn time the admin respond to problems and rampant abuse with "its not my problem!" The fuck it isnt your problem. You run the site and these moderators are ruining it!

As for RPG.net. I think if Shannon gave the axe to tangency, and the worst of the mods, and laid down some real rules of conduct that weren't agenda driven. The fora might rise up again.

This has absolutely been my experience as well. There was one website I visited for years. The moderation was... relatively hands off. The admin was inactive-ish, so were most mods, but the place was pretty amicable anyway and so it wasn't really an issue. We discussed the topics the site was made for, there was an off-topic forum that occasionally got a bit heated with politics, but there was always a bit of a gentleman's agreement not to let things spill out from there. Again, mods almost never intervened and even the worst cases usually died out pretty quickly when people probably realised they'd be sharing the rest of the forum with these people. Even if two people really went at it in politics, they generally remained amicable elsewhere. Occasionally you got a hardcore shitposter rear their head, but they tended to shut up when they realised none was rising to their bait.

Then the 2016 election really started ramping up. Brexit happened, Trump gained momentum and a certain inactive moderator who hadn't had his powers revoked decided to come back and 'clean up' the site. Hypocrisy started flowing with certain conservative posters finding themselves under much greater scrutiny on non-political parts of the forum regarding rules. Those who wanted to stir trouble noticed this, and said mod obviously picked up a few Camp Followers in the political, off-topic threads (which were only a tiny part of the overall forum). When Trump won, everything went to hell. I really don't like making it sound like "Left-wing democratic bad! Smug comic author reply here!" but it was obvious once certain members realised they had an active moderator in their pocket, they went to town actively trying to drown out perceived conservative members across the forum. Said moderator recruited useful other mods, with a shrug and nod from an admin who I don't think so much supported as genuinely did not care. Needless to say, about half the membership left within a few months and it's been dying a painful death ever since. I think it's lucky to manage about one post every few days now, compared to whole pages of discussions it sparked not three years ago.

Damn shame, because I held that place up as a fantastic example of a community largely policing itself, hands off, with barely any mention or presence of moderators whom you wouldn't even recognise as such for how little they had to (or chose to) invoke their powers to do anything but stop spam bots.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: RPGPundit on November 27, 2019, 07:22:01 AM
Please keep this on topic to the RPG hobby.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: jan paparazzi on November 27, 2019, 03:37:55 PM
Quote from: Haffrung;1113115
Ameritrash is not a term used by Eurogamers to denigrate Americans. It's a self-deprecating term used by people who play Ameritrash games to describe the games they love. Hundreds of members on BGG proudly display Ameritrash user badges. A website devoted to reviewing and promoting those sorts of games calls itself Fortress Ameritrash.

I've explained this to you five or six times. The only people who think Ameritrash is a slur are humourless snowflakes.

Yep, agreed. Let me explain this for all non-boardgamers. Ameritrash is just another name for highly thematic board games and is mostly used in contradiction with German style board games aka Eurogames.

Ameritrash:

-Highly thematic (usually fantasy/sci-fi/horror)
-Randomness often with dice
-Miniatures
-Direct player conflict aka war
-Player elimination

Eurogames:

-Hardly any theme or pasted on theme (it could be anything else really)
-Solid mechanics with little randomness
-Wooden blocks and cubes for all the bean counting or resource management
-No direct player conflict (the games are quite often trade sims, because of Germany and their history with the wars)
-Victory points (so no player elimination)

Examples Ameritrash: Mansions of Madness, Twilight Imperium, Descent

Examples Eurogames: Puerto Rico, Agricola, Caverna

Nowadays there a lot of games that mix mechanics from both, Ameritrash games that use some Euro mechanics, Eurogames with more theme and some games that fall right in the middle like Eclipse.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Spinachcat on November 27, 2019, 11:08:12 PM
The joke is Ameritrash won the boardgame war, most especially on Kickstarter.

As for Shannon CrapApple, its all self-inflicted wounds. Tangency should have been separated from RPG.net a decade ago and made its own non-gaming forum. It might have been a successful venture on its own, but its only poison for RPG.net.


Quote from: JeremyR;1112997
(And also wrong, because many of the really dumb movies, like Battleship, are way more popular overseas than in the US)


I saw that movie at my local El Cheapo 2nd run theater. It was mostly empty, but a dad had brought his young son and his big bunch of friends for a "movie birthday party". The boys were all around 7 or 8 years old and Battleship was their Star Wars. They were so crazy happy watching that flick that it even made it entertaining for me. The little nimrods were bouncing in the lobby afterwards reliving the battle scenes and I can only imagine they're all bummed there wasn't a sequel.


Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1113281
That is, the site I help moderate has had suicides and murders.


1) Pundy, don't let Kyle Aaron moderate here!

2) Kyle, maybe you want to mod RPG.net for a while? Maybe during the 2020 election time?
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 27, 2019, 11:37:07 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1115194
I saw that movie at my local El Cheapo 2nd run theater. It was mostly empty, but a dad had brought his young son and his big bunch of friends for a "movie birthday party". The boys were all around 7 or 8 years old and Battleship was their Star Wars. They were so crazy happy watching that flick that it even made it entertaining for me. The little nimrods were bouncing in the lobby afterwards reliving the battle scenes and I can only imagine they're all bummed there wasn't a sequel.

I kinda liked Battleship. It was like a Michael Bay movie (It looks like they were copying his "style") without the intelligence insulting level of stupidity. Just the normal bad-but-fun level of stupidity.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Kyle Aaron on November 28, 2019, 12:38:43 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1115194
2) Kyle, maybe you want to mod RPG.net for a while? Maybe during the 2020 election time?
No thanks.

Actually, they removed me and banned me after ten years there, the last couple moderating, no reason given. Perhaps I spoke too much in this thread? I'm a big believer in transparency in life, and especially in anything even vaguely resembling governance. That wasn't so popular with the bosses.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: jan paparazzi on November 28, 2019, 06:44:12 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1115194
The joke is Ameritrash won the boardgame war, most especially on Kickstarter.


I like Ameritrash better too. Not that I don't like some Eurogames, because I do. But I think most people on this forum are people who will probably like Ameritrash better. If you like fantasy, sci-fi, rpg's, comics etc. your inner nerd will probably be more excited for dungeon crawler's and 4X games and war games with miniatures. Eurogames are more family oriented and therefor less appealing to me.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: HappyDaze on November 28, 2019, 07:34:32 PM
Quote from: jan paparazzi;1115247
I like Ameritrash better too. Not that I don't like some Eurogames, because I do. But I think most people on this forum are people who will probably like Ameritrash better. If you like fantasy, sci-fi, rpg's, comics etc. your inner nerd will probably be more excited for dungeon crawler's and 4X games and war games with miniatures. Eurogames are more family oriented and therefor less appealing to me.

I've played several Eurogames once, but very few get a second round. As a rule, I do not find them appealing.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Omega on November 29, 2019, 05:07:01 AM
I figured the usual suspects would chime in to defend its use. Bravo on being both predictable and worthless.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: jan paparazzi on November 29, 2019, 06:12:52 PM
Quote from: Omega;1115284
I figured the usual suspects would chime in to defend its use. Bravo on being both predictable and worthless.
If you are so hung up about then you should just use thematic games. Because that's what they are. It has nothing to do with the country the game comes from. It's just a way to seperate nerdy games from more family oriented games. Those latter games have less theme, because that works better for a more mainstream audience. I can play Ticket to Ride with normies, but I don't think I could get my family to play Betrayal at House on the Hill. They would find that weird.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: sureshot on November 30, 2019, 11:08:37 AM
Lurking on the site seeing threads where posters talk about an rpg or sourcebook and every new page of said reviewed book requires a trigger warning be included does not give me any shred of hope of TBP every becoming as welcoming as it used to be. To the mindless butt kissing sycophants who rather than do the right thing bend over backwards and happily agree as the site becomes more more regressive. As they rather lose and any all self-respect than be banned from TBP. To the mods making arbitrary decisions on what is  and is not offensive. To the hypocrisy of them labeling myself, others here and Pundit as Alt-Righters when they have become even more corrupt and repressive. It will only get worse if Trump wins a second term as many who go on the site live in a fantasy, imaginary, narrative filled world of their own making. With anything that does not fit into the narrative does not exist.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Joey2k on November 30, 2019, 01:57:00 PM
Quote from: Omega;1115284
I figured the usual suspects would chime in to defend its use. Bravo on being both predictable and worthless.


You mean the 90-95% of gamers who aren't offended by it?
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Kyle Aaron on November 30, 2019, 06:48:22 PM
Quote from: sureshot;1115363
many who go on the site live in a fantasy, imaginary, narrative filled world of their own making. With anything that does not fit into the narrative does not exist.

I can't recall who said it, but some brilliant person said, "the only roleplaying most of rpg.net do is pretending to be gamers."
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Spinachcat on December 01, 2019, 12:29:17 AM
Quote from: sureshot;1115363
It will only get worse if Trump wins a second term as many who go on the site live in a fantasy, imaginary, narrative filled world of their own making.

Even more reasons to vote for the God Emperor!!

He's the President with Benefits!


Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1115386
I can't recall who said it, but some brilliant person said, "the only roleplaying most of rpg.net do is pretending to be gamers."

LOL!! I think you're quoting the philosopher known as Kyle of the Aaron clan!


Quote from: Joey2k;1115372
You mean the 90-95% of gamers who aren't offended by it?

Ameritrash was a bullshit and insulting term that got "reclaimed" because the Euro-abstract aesthetic lost out to games which combined theme and mechanics so the Euro-snob players got shunted out of the limelight, but its still bullshit.

The clowns who pushed the "Ameritrash" narrative were akin the storygame crowd in RPGs. They latched onto one type of game and declared that type to be the "only real games".

Personally, I don't mind abstract games and some are excellent, but I never saw the alleged superiority of Abstraction, just akin to a modern art fetish. But its pretty funny to see how "Ameritrash" gamers absolutely won Kickstarter.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Kyle Aaron on December 01, 2019, 12:34:15 AM
Nah, someone else. Jack Spencer Jr? One of those angry posters we used to have.
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Bren on December 01, 2019, 12:51:36 AM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1115397
Nah, someone else. Jack Spencer Jr? One of those angry posters we used to have.
As opposed to the angry ones we still have? :D
Title: The Brains behind RPG Net Shannon Appelcline Interviewed
Post by: Shasarak on December 01, 2019, 02:47:45 PM
Quote from: Bren;1115400
As opposed to the angry ones we still have? :D

Generalizations like that make me so furious! :mad: