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Author Topic: The Biggest Thing Game Designers/GMs do Wrong  (Read 9619 times)

RPGPundit

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The Biggest Thing Game Designers/GMs do Wrong
« on: October 04, 2006, 12:42:32 AM »
This is a spinoff of my now-regretably named "why the angst" thread (regrettably because the word "angst" triggered all the wrong meanings).  That thread was trying to analyze why it is that game designers, and most GMs, are incapable of portraying more sophisticated concepts and emotions in their games, than the most basic infantile expressions, often even more basic than the sort of junk you find on television.

I'm not saying that this is the only reason, but I suspect ONE of the reasons is that far too many geeks these days think that being "educated" and "reading a lot of books" are the same thing.

In reality, they aren't.

In reality, if you spend your whole life reading nothing but Harlequin romances, then even if you've read tens of thousands of them, you really aren't going to be a very educated person, or capable of making work that portrays very sophisticated concepts.

And, unlike what some geeks seem to believe, your average fantasy/scifi novel or comic book is no more sophisticated than your average harlequin romance.

Whether its Fabio on the cover, or Drrzt Do'Urden, or Wolverine, reading tons and tons of crap isn't going to make you a good writer or a good game designer or a good GM.

I'm suspecting that the reason that so many games and campaigns are so deeply infantile in their emotional quotient is because if your highest level of reading material is the latest Robert Jordan novel, you're only going to be capable of doing work of your own that is inferior to Robert Jordan.

I had a friend once who was desperate to become a sci-fi author, he had given me one of his novels to critique, and after reading it, and noting a little bit of raw talent, I took him aside and asked him what it was he read as inspiration.  He listed all kinds of sci-fi books, mostly heavy militaristic sci fi a la David Drake.

My response to him was that if he really wanted to become a good sci-fi author, the very first thing he needs to do is to stop reading sci fi novels. To stop reading David Drake, and start reading Hemmingway, or Herodotus, or the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. And pointing out to him that most of the guys who were truly good sci-fi authors spent a hell of a lot of their time reading and learning about all kinds of things OTHER than sci-fi. Zelazny wasn't a great sci-fi author because he read Asimov; he was a great sci-fi author because he'd read books on zen, and books on fencing, and he'd read Mark Twain, and besides all that because he'd actually gone out and DONE shit. He'd travelled, he'd had wierd relationships, etc etc.

Which gets to my other point: a GM who hasn't actually done fuck all with his life is going to be a pretty piss-poor GM, and a game designer who hasn't done fuck all with his life is going to be incapable of writing anything interesting.

Note that I'm not saying that a straightforward, low-Emotion dungeon crawl is in any way bad. I love that shit, and all of you know it. I'm definitely not suggesting that games need to deal with sophisticated themes to be good.  What I'm talking about is games that ATTEMPT to deal with more sophisticated themes, and fail miserably.

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blakkie

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The Biggest Thing Game Designers/GMs do Wrong
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2006, 01:35:09 AM »
I'm curious, can you name one game that has rules that comes even close to meeting your personal criteria for setting up for a sophisticated theme? Or at least describe what a game would look like that does this? What does it, very specifically and explicitly stated, need to do?

Because what I think you are asking for might be hard to identify as such if you are looking for anything like a book or movie or such that does since games themselves really only provide the framework. Even with prefab modules for a set of rules a large portion of the actual content is provided by the players.

Really RPGs are tools for creating a story in much the same way as any collection of general literary techniques. It sets you up, but you can still easily pooch it and come up with some hackneyed tripe. Especially if the GM and/or some players fall into the lack of depth catagory themselves. Or if they don't really care and aren't looking to create the next Old Man and the Sea, they are just there to bang around and drink a few brews.  Or if the GM and the players aren't pulling in the same direction to the point they sabatoge each other.
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Settembrini

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The Biggest Thing Game Designers/GMs do Wrong
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2006, 02:35:33 AM »
Quote
Really RPGs are tools for creating a story in much the same way as any collection of general literary techniques.

RPGs are games. Don`t get Story-Creative with us.

Apart from that you are right: RP as a method is a tool, and you can use it for tripe or travesty.
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RPGPundit

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The Biggest Thing Game Designers/GMs do Wrong
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2006, 02:37:31 AM »
its more a setting issue than a rules issue. I agree you don't do this with the rules. When I say "game designer"; I'm talking about game line writers.

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blakkie

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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2006, 02:38:12 AM »
Quote from: Settembrini
RPGs are games. Don`t get Story-Creative with us.

What? Nobody at the table is making up a story? Because of the sample play I saw of your game you sure as hell were.
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blakkie

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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2006, 02:50:26 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
I agree you don't do this with the rules.

I never said that. I said quite the opposite of that. The rules can be another tool, [EDIT if not part of the medium itself]. Sort of like a scratch pad to jot down ideas to work on later or a good cigar to get your mind in the spot you want to write, but closer to the literary devices I was talking about.
Quote
When I say "game designer"; I'm talking about game line writers.

Ah, I see what you are getting at now. The backstory "fluff" that is out there isn't to your liking. That I get. Well I think it's more an issue of there aren't that many exceptional writers period, by definition I suppose. ;)  I see no need to expect a disproportional number of them to have gotten into, or stayed in, a market like RPGs where instead of just having only a longshot at hitting big you basically toss away even the slim chance of it.

EDIT: Incidentally, though I don't know many actual RPG writers personally, I would say that the secondhand descriptions of Nigel Findley and the breadth of his actual work, suggests he was very much what you are describing. That certainly didn't keep him from coming up with damn goofy Shadowrun stuff. Though quality goofy I'll say.
"Because honestly? I have no idea what you do. None." - Pierce Inverarity

Settembrini

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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2006, 02:58:56 AM »
Quote
What? Nobody at the table is making up a story? Because of the sample play I saw of your game you sure as hell were.

Story might be the result, but game is the  purpose, YMMV.
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blakkie

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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2006, 03:03:07 AM »
Quote from: Settembrini
Story might be the result, but game is the  purpose, YMMV.

But the story is still there. And if it's tripe then it's tripe. And if you don't care about it at all, which I also do NOT get from your example game, then that would definately be a good reason for it to be tripe.  Or if you wanted to be able to tell and enjoy the story later but were A-OK with it being tripe that would be another reason for it to tend to come out that way. Because what is thought of as tripe, especially what RPGPundit seems to be describing, is generally overlayed with the path of least effort.
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David R

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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2006, 03:03:39 AM »
Quote from: Settembrini
Story might be the result, but game is the  purpose, YMMV.


Some would say, the story is the prupose and the game just the means to achieve that end.

Regards,
David R

blakkie

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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2006, 03:05:04 AM »
Quote from: David R
Some would say, the story is the prupose and the game just the means to achieve that end.

Regards,
David R

Shhhh, he's in denial. Don't provoke his rhetoric. ;)
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David R

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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2006, 03:22:10 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
its more a setting issue than a rules issue. I agree you don't do this with the rules. When I say "game designer"; I'm talking about game line writers.

RPGPundit


Could you give us some examples of designers, games etc. Reading crap lit (subjective and all that) never helps - well that depends on the group - but neither does reading good lit.

I mean some of the stuff out there depending on ones point of view is pretty infantile - but you know something I'm sure the writers of said products are reading some of the more obscure high brow material out there- I dig some of the White Wolf games, but come one - some of their writing is pretty wanky.

I'm sure going out and living expands your world view and all, but lets be honest, some of the most interesting, complex stuff are written by desk bound geeks, who have assimilated the good stuff they have read some place else (or maybe even thought up own their own) and reproduced it in an inventive and original manner - I'm talking about the emotional stuff here in terms of setting fluff etc. And I'm sure they are GMs who do the same thing.

Regards,
David R

Pebbles and Marbles

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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2006, 03:30:10 AM »
Somewhere within the last year or two, "story" has become something of a dirty word for certain gamers.  We can all imagine the variety of reasons for this, so I don't intend to provide a rundown here.

I think, however, that it's something of a shame that a simple enough term as "story" has been abandoned by some people just because of others using it in a highly specific manner that doesn't jibe with their notion of gaming.

Or, if you prefer: Reembrace story, dammit.

Settembrini is both wrong and right when he says that "Story might be the result, but game is the purpose."  For most people, I imagine that "game" is a purpose somewhat higher than "story" if we're using that more specific meaning of story.  I don't want to use of the standard code words here, as those seem to just derail any conversation whenever they're used, so I hope that everyone can parse what I'm trying to say here without actually saying it.

That aside, I also think Settembrini is a bit wrong when he says that "Story might be the result..."  No, story is the result or, perhaps more delicately, it is a large part of the result.  More than that, "story" is part and parcel of "game".  

Resistance to that notion seems to be rooted in a desire to make a philosophical/theoretical stand against those more specific uses of "story" more than anything else.  It seems to be more of a case of "Well, my games aren't about that.  My style of play isn't that.  So, my games aren't "story", thank you very much."

And, you know what?  I can understand that to an extent.  Perhaps not the extent that it sometimes goes, descending into counter-productive vitriol, but to the extent to wanting to distance yourself from something that you have considered and have concluded that doesn't work for you, yet can be forced upon you by others.

But, in a way, refusing to acknowledge that one's game has "story" just further promotes what one is trying to disavow.  Reclaim the word, make it your own thing.

Because any game, no matter it being lowbrow or having airs towards something more complicated, still produces "story" and still has "story as a fundamental component to its nature.

"Four of us went into a dungeon, to fight monsters and claim treasure.  Three of us emerged, having defeated some monsters and claimed some reward.  One of us was eaten by a giant frog."

That's a story, even if absolutely no forethought went into the process.  A story was created by the simple act of playing the game.  I would say that's a fundamental aspect of RPGs that seperate themselves from some game like cribbage or parcheesi.  It's a by product of assuming a role, even in the most general meaning of that word.

Unless I've greatly misunderstood why there's an objection to the use of "story" here.  I allow that I could be misreading people's objections here.

Thoughts?
 

Settembrini

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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2006, 03:34:23 AM »
@Pebbles:
I think you are right.
Will have to think deeper about it.
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RPGPundit

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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2006, 03:53:38 AM »
Quote from: David R
Some would say, the story is the prupose and the game just the means to achieve that end.


Those people would be wrong, or talking about something other than RPGs.

RPGPundit
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arminius

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The Biggest Thing Game Designers/GMs do Wrong
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2006, 03:53:39 AM »
Where's Sett's thread?

In the meantime, though, you guys are just showing your story-bias. If you play baseball, or backgammon, or Advanced Squad Leader, you aren't making up a story, even though a story is produced, and even though the game functions and maintains interest through the narrative continuity. In other words, "bases loaded in the bottom of the ninth, two outs, home team behind by one run" has narrative significance even though nobody in the game is doing anything that could be construed as "making up a story". RPGs can be just the same (and in fact were, overwhelmingly, in the early days of the hobby).