On another forum where I'm a moderator, there was a passing comment that if someone has to spend 4 hours making a character, he's much less likely to do something stupid and get him killed, mandating another 4 hour character creation system.

The poster believed, apparently, that if characters were a dime a dozen and took only minutes to create, and were obviously then very undetailed, players woulddn't mind getting them killed and thereby play stupidly.

So, how do you feel on this issue? Seemed like it might be worth a good thread here.

Quote from: Dominus NoxOn another forum where I'm a moderator, there was a passing comment that if someone has to spend 4 hours making a character, he's much less likely to do something stupid and get him killed, mandating another 4 hour character creation system.

The poster believed, apparently, that if characters were a dime a dozen and took only minutes to create, and were obviously then very undetailed, players woulddn't mind getting them killed and thereby play stupidly.

So, how do you feel on this issue? Seemed like it might be worth a good thread here.

Sounds like they were quoting almost verbatim from Rifts Ultimate Edition where Kevin Siembieda defends the Palladium system's long, arduous, and overcomplicated character creation as the only way to make characters with true depth and value of play.

If someone is intent upon suiciding a character, they'll do it.  Length of character creation has nothing to do with it.

I tend to look at it the other way around. A benfit of quick character creation, at least in terms of the procedures (*), is it makes it less likely that people will be over-protective of their characters, which can lead to cautious, boring play.

(*) Of course even with quick mechanical character creation, you can still make up whatever deep background you like.

When Blackleaf dies, hilarity ensues.

What's this about something long and hard? Am I in the right forum?

Seriously, though, it's not the actual time taken that matters, but whether the player themselves gives a shit. And that's a matter of the thought they put into the character - not effort or time, but thought. If you give the character a real personality and background, if you have stuff to tie them to the game world, if it seems like any of the stuff you do matters and will come up in play - then you give a shit if they live or die.

How many numbers you have to crunch has nothing to do with it. It's whether the player bothers to think about their character as a person, or just a piece of paper. Combined with the GM and other players tying it all into the game world, etc.

One of the things that I initially quite liked about GURPS, was the fact that, basically, you couldn't really make a character without having some idea what the hell he was going to be like.  It was sort of a side effect of it's openness, that if you didn't know what you wanted your character to be like already, you wouldn't really have much luck making him.  

But I don't think this factor necessarily relies on detail, so much as openness.  The more freedom you put into the character system, the more of a concrete idea the player needs before he can utilize it.

Whereas with sometihng like D&D or Rifts, I found you could get away without even really having a character.  Just pick a class and race that sounds cool and fly.

My characters have zero true/independent personality or concrete background until I actually play them. Until I take a game action with them, they're just words and numbers on paper.

Every action I have them take gives them a little more reality. If they die quickly, I usually shrug and move on. If they last more than 8-10 hours of game time they've usually developed a pretty concrete personality beyond any background I chose (or was compelled) to write up.

And only when I can distinguish their personality, their distinctness, do I bother to invest effort in preserving them for the long term.

Quote from: Dominus NoxSo, how do you feel on this issue?

That it is a steaming crock of shit?  As long as there are printers and/or photocopiers Suicide Boi will roll out Dr. Raven Darktalon Blood XIV within scant minutes of Dr. Raven Darktalon Blood XIII's death.  Besides, and this is right out of a thread from earlier this week, I'm of the opinion that the biggest attachment to and investment in a character tends to come during play. Roll back the character at least 1 session's worth of advancement and you've just killed 4 hours of time invested. *shrug*

I'm not saying that a fairly detailed character generation is a lock to be bad, but it better take a long time for some other motivation than just being a pain in the ass to discourage it's use. :/ The exact opposite infact, if it takes a long time the process damn well better be sweet, sweet brain candy to justify the time spent.

Quote from: blakkie

It's actually "D'oh!"

Quote from: ScaleWhen Blackleaf dies, hilarity ensues.

When Jack Chick dies, it's going to be a gamer holiday.

I have a player in my group, she understands the benefits of long, hard, detailed character creation...sometimes while doing it she also fondles the dice bag...

The time spent on character creation has no bearing on stupid play whether there is interest in the game, on the other hand is extremely relevent.

Regards,
David R

Oh, gitcher minds outta the gutter......

I strongly disagree.

RPGPundit

I think the best benefit of complex chargen is that it allows a game to take rule exceptions and the like and take care of them up front. D&D's feats are a great example as are advantages/disads in other systems.