For a while there, both in SF and naturally in RPGs, there were quite a few authors (I remember reading some incredibly cheap, crappy paperbacks with the premise) that presented worlds that were, for all effects fantasy worlds, but it was a crucial element of the setting description that in fact this world was not a fantasy world, but an alien world populated by humans (usually by accident, and bundled up with some disaster that causes a loss of the high-tech SF knowledge that brought them here) in the far future.

Tekumel is like that, Jorune is like that.  There are a few other RPG settings like that, no doubt.  

What was the appeal of this concept? Particularly in those worlds where you didn't really have much if any actual high-tech happening?

Conversely, is there something about this kind of setting that turns you off, or that would make it less popular than just saying "its a fantasy world"?  For one the fact that it seems needlessly complex, I suppose...

RPGPundit

I like the appeal of just breaking out of the mold a little bit. After so many games with elves, dwarves and dragons, things can start to feel a little stale. Plus, there's the added spice of the sword-and-planet type story, which you can sort of emulate in "classic" fantasy, but it's just not quite the same.

It is, in a lot of ways, just another fantasy world with some things swapped around and a different level of detail.

I have a friend who runs a straight fantasy game with a sci-fi background. All the magic is nanotechnology and all the dragons are genetic constructs, but the gameplay is mostly indistinguishable from regular fantasy. Having that as a base just amuses him.

Well, there's a lot of ground between the world of Hawkmoon, the Urth of New Sun, The Dying Earth, and Shannara right?

Most fantasy worlds are built on the wreckage an ruins of past ages.  It's a nice easy explanation for dungeons and monsters.  It's not much different with the original Gamma World.

I think it's partially the visual and contextual contrast, the cool smooth steel walls of the ancient installation and the rough hides and furs of the savages who live in it.  The barbarian princess in her standard issue fur bikini who has a laser pistol.

Really Warhammer 40000 and Rifts both fit into the broader context of this mix.

Maybe we find the notion that all this progress and science will inevitably be lost to barbarism comforting.

Quote from: David Johansen;462256Well, there's a lot of ground between the world of Hawkmoon, the Urth of New Sun, The Dying Earth, and Shannara right?

Most fantasy worlds are built on the wreckage an ruins of past ages.  It's a nice easy explanation for dungeons and monsters.  It's not much different with the original Gamma World.

I think it's partially the visual and contextual contrast, the cool smooth steel walls of the ancient installation and the rough hides and furs of the savages who live in it.  The barbarian princess in her standard issue fur bikini who has a laser pistol.

Really Warhammer 40000 and Rifts both fit into the broader context of this mix.

Maybe we find the notion that all this progress and science will inevitably be lost to barbarism comforting.

Nice reply here...

I think it's an invocation of Clarke's "sufficiently advanced technology" law, or some corollary thereof, to protect suspension of disbelief in those cases where the author's personal fantasy is too modernistic, or too deviant, to be read as traditional myth/fantasy.  Or, maybe it is just scraping the barrel trying to be different.

Pundit, how essential is the "lost planet" part of your definition of this genre? Are all the far-future Earths disqualified?

So far, we've got Tekumel and Jorune.  Let's have some more examples to help differentiate the "far future alien world" from the Urths and Shannaras.

Quote from: RPGPundit;462244For a while there, both in SF and naturally in RPGs, there were quite a few authors (I remember reading some incredibly cheap, crappy paperbacks with the premise) that presented worlds that were, for all effects fantasy worlds, but it was a crucial element of the setting description that in fact this world was not a fantasy world, but an alien world populated by humans (usually by accident, and bundled up with some disaster that causes a loss of the high-tech SF knowledge that brought them here) in the far future.

This sounds like the premise of the television shows Stargate SG-1 and Stargate Atlantis.

Powerful aliens visited earth for thousands of years and masqueraded themselves as "gods" to various ancient human civilizations.  Over many thousands of years, large numbers of humans were kidnapped by these powerful aliens and brought to other parts of the universe for all kinds of nasty purposes.

These kidnapped humans (in other parts of the universe) ended up creating civilizations which resembled various earth ones from history (ie. ancient egypt, etc ...).

For the most part, the Stargate setting is very much like a kitchen sink of numerous science fiction and fantasy tropes, all simultaneous with being in the present day (ie. during the 2000's).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Mythology

Quote from: RPGPundit;462244...worlds that were, for all effects fantasy worlds, but it was a crucial element of the setting description that in fact this world was not a fantasy world, but an alien world populated by humans...  in the far future.

That is all yours, Pundit. It is no attitude I recall ever encountering from the authors, publishers or fans of, e.g., Burroughs's or Brackett's or Lewis's planetary romances; or Bradley's Darkover, or Silverberg's Majipoor; or the future Earths of C.A. Smith, Hodgson, Lanier, Moorcock, Vance, Wolfe, etc..

I think Pundit's distinction is accurate and useful on a variety of points from a meta-genre perspective (the way it sets up expectations, particularly when you contrast "distant future science fantasy" with so-called "high-fantasy"), a cultural perspective ("high fantasy" and other fantasies--but not S&S--have strong roots in tradition, even if they've been bastardized), and in-setting perspective ("magic" isn't "psionics" isn't "high tech").

The distinction is less strongly recognized in books, true, than in RPGs, but "high fantasy" has increasingly dominated in both forms over the last few decades as far as I can tell, while earlier pop fantasy/SF (pre-1979, say) was less canonized and the two genres overlapped more. Also, in books the author has a great deal more control and doesn't have nearly as much to contend with in terms of getting the reader to go along.

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;462254I like the appeal of just breaking out of the mold a little bit. After so many games with elves, dwarves and dragons, things can start to feel a little stale.

I agree with this above all. It's a way of stating definitively & clearly that the tropes of neither "traditional" nor "high fantasy" apply, nor should elements of pseudo-medievalism be taken for granted, etc.

As for other examples in games, aside from Dying Earth where it's really not clear if the magic is resurgent magic after the decadence of Reason, there's also GURPS Planet of Adventure and the recent Chronicles of Future Earth for BRP.

To clarify, I'm not talking about Gonzo settings that clearly mix sci-fi and fantasy.  I'm talking about those settings where there's a very high-to-absolute chance that it will NEVER actually come up in the game that "this is an alien planet and not a fantasy world" or "this is actually earth in the distant distant future so distant that there's no actual way to tell its earth".

I mean, what's the point of that?  If I decide in a game that there's one character who's not an actual person but an automaton, but he is absolutely biologically indistinguishable from a person, and has all the same personality and characteristics of a person, and has no personal knowledge of being anything but a person, and there's no conceivable way the PCs are ever going to find out he's not a person, and it doesn't actually change anything at all in actual play, what is the point of saying "he's an automaton" in the first place?!

Likewise, if you say "700 000 years ago this was a colony world of a human spacefaring civilization in our own future; but now its de-evolved to where no memory survives of that, there's no actual tech left lying around, no one knows this is the case, and it will never come up in actual play, but there it is", what's the fucking point?!

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit...it was a crucial element of the setting description that in fact this world was... an alien world populated by humans (usually by accident, and bundled up with some disaster that causes a loss of the high-tech SF knowledge that brought them here) in the far future.

Tekumel is like that, Jorune is like that.

Quote from: RPGPundit;462289To clarify... I'm talking about those settings where there's a very high-to-absolute chance that it will NEVER actually come up in the game that "this is an alien planet and not a fantasy world" or "this is actually earth in the distant distant future so distant that there's no actual way to tell its earth".

What will you 'clarify' next? You have just established that you have no idea what you are talking about! I mean, is it Tekumel and Jorune, or not? If not, then what?

Put down the pipe and give those gray cells some oxygen, man, then get back to us.

"Not a fantasy world"? What is that even supposed to mean? Do you believe that the sorceries of Tekumel and flying islands of Jorune are real?

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;462254I have a friend who runs a straight fantasy game with a sci-fi background. All the magic is nanotechnology and all the dragons are genetic constructs, but the gameplay is mostly indistinguishable from regular fantasy. Having that as a base just amuses him.

That's very similar to the setup for my Chronicles of Amherth setting. You can play it as straight fantasy or play up some of the scifi elements. The appeal for me is a blend of science and magic opens up a lot of possibilities. Are the constructs in my setting golems or robots? Are the strange "places of power" reservoirs of untapped magic or giant generators. I leave that up to the GM (or LL in this case) to decide.

My home game has a distinct scifi feel to it mainly because I have a rough backstory in my head of how things came to be. On the surface though, it plays out as straight fantasy pretty much.

Pete

Quote from: RPGPundit;462289Likewise, if you say "700 000 years ago this was a colony world of a human spacefaring civilization in our own future; but now its de-evolved to where no memory survives of that, there's no actual tech left lying around, no one knows this is the case, and it will never come up in actual play, but there it is", what's the fucking point?!

RPGPundit

I'm assuming here that you are talking about Tekumel in specific, so its worth pointing out a few things:

1: Ancient tech is lying about and is common enough that if you live in a large city you might have witnessed its use by someone. Its also possible that if you belong to a powerful enough clan you might have even used some of it yourself. Most of the temples have access to the 'aircars' of ancient times, most of them know how to call the subterranean tubeway cars that can take you all over the planet. Most of the empires also have access to ancient weaponry and transportation. They can't repair it, and for the most part the don't understand it, but it is there. There have also been robots, space ships (the plain of towers is an old ruined starport) and at least one atomic device that has been detonated on Tekumel in the recent past.

2. Most magicians/priests of Tekumel are well aware that Tekumel is one planet in a solar system. The readily available magic of 'dimensional gates' has allowed them to visit at least one of Tekumel's moons, which has a breathable atmosphere. Also, because of theses gates/nexus points magicians are well aware that there is a large multi-dimensional cosmos out there and Tekumel is just one part of it. They may not be aware that they first came from planet earth, but really does that make a difference? Many of the Native American myth structures could be read as dimly remembered interplanetary migration (traveling from the First World to the Second World, etc.).

This is not the first time you have singled out Tekumel for a rant. It's a pretty minor bywater in the gaming universe and I do kind of wonder why it makes you roll your eyes and gnash your teeth so much? If it bothers you just pretend it never existed. I can't imagine there are legions of Empire of the Petal Throne fans who are hunting you down and forcing you to play this game.

The overall theme of space colonies which have sunk into barbarism is pretty common is Sci-fi. I'm not going to re-list authors already mentioned in the thread, but I'll add a few more. Ursula K. LeGuin's commonality novels deal with it as does Cloud Cry by Sydney J. Van Scyoc, Larry Niven's Ringworld deals with it (I'm pretty sure many of the people on the Ringworld didn't understand that all worlds weren't like the one they lived on). Also I'm surprised no one has mentioned Thundar the Barbarian yet. You could also look at the Planet of the Apes movies as being similar. The evolved apes couldn't believe there was ever a time when humans were the dominant species.

I think most people realize that civilization is a tenuous thing. There are tons of examples in history of great civilizations collapsing and barbarism taking hold again. So its only natural that when we create alternate settings for games and novels this trope pops up in some way.

My homebrew fantasy setting is basically in that classification... disastrous collapse of wormhole networks leads to collapse of oppressive alien empire... stranded survivors on a 'world that is not their own' have to make do and generally revert to lower tech... and the 'magic' of the past is suspect to many.
Lots of Jorune and Tribe 8 in the mix... but it's basically an extension of my ancient Gamma World campaigns from High School.
It comes off as vaguely Asian-influenced fantasy... but if you go digging you can find yourself on other worlds or in pocket universes or on space ships (it links up to several other homebrew settings).

Phillip's got it here. Pundit's premise serves to highlight the rigid divide between "science fiction" and "fantasy" that entered the minds of fans sometime post-1985, rather than shedding light on any particular aspect of setting creation.

Quote from: RPGPundit;462289To clarify, I'm not talking about Gonzo settings that clearly mix sci-fi and fantasy.  I'm talking about those settings where there's a very high-to-absolute chance that it will NEVER actually come up in the game that "this is an alien planet and not a fantasy world" or "this is actually earth in the distant distant future so distant that there's no actual way to tell its earth".

I suppose its done in the hope of adding to the exotic, alien feel - in the hope the players feel that it is 'barbarism in the far future' ?

A couple of other RPG examples I can think of no one's mentioned yet would be Synnibarr (Mars 50,000 years on, though its geography and local star system are completely different - two suns). There were also a series of gamebooks called Skyfall which were set on a generic fantasy planet complete with druids etc, though apparently its a lost colony of earth.

From a science-y perspective having an alien world be settled from Earth actually makes there being humans there much more plausible, though really this is something that honestly no one really thinks about much. We usually take that we're there pretty much for granted, though the chance of humans arising may actually be quite small, statistically. There are alot of other possibly pathways for evolution to take, if you believe (say) Stephen Jay Gould.