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Author Topic: The 15 Core Classes  (Read 2351 times)

jadrax

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The 15 Core Classes
« on: March 02, 2012, 04:40:46 AM »
I just saw this list on a newsgroup, basically claiming that all to Core Classes from previous D&D editions, can basically be boiled down to 5 groups with three classes in each, the problem is I am not familiar enough with every D&D edition to know if any are missing.

Quote
Melee Specialists
Barbarian, Fighter/Fighting Man, Paladin
Magic Specialists
Magic-User/Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock,  [With Illusionist covered by Magic-User]
Healing Specialists
Cleric, Druid, Warlord
Stealth Specialists
Assassin, Ranger, Rogue/Thief
Others
Bard, Monk, Psion/Psionicist


Although if it is accurate it's a weird coincidence it's ended up that neat.

Lawbag

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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2012, 05:05:05 AM »
The intial 19 classes for Rolemaster worked out in a similar-ish neat fashion as I recall.
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Windjammer

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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2012, 05:30:23 AM »
This is about as useful as the similarly exhaustive categorization of animals in The Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge:

   1. those that belong to the Emperor,
   2. embalmed ones,
   3. those that are trained,
   4. suckling pigs,
   5. mermaids,
   6. fabulous ones,
   7. stray dogs,
   8. those included in the present classification,
   9. those that tremble as if they were mad,
  10. innumerable ones,
  11. those drawn with a very fine camelhair brush,
  12. others,
  13. those that have just broken a flower vase,
  14. those that from a long way off look like flies.

I draw special attention to entry 12.
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danbuter

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The 15 Core Classes
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2012, 05:40:36 AM »
Pretty cool, and likely accidental.
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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2012, 05:59:34 AM »
And now I have to justify a campaign of zoologists to explore and categorize the world's many things under The Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge. Thanks Windjammer!

... I'm thinking Legend of the Burning Sands, Fading Suns, or Call of Cthulhu.
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Spike

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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2012, 06:54:59 AM »
Actually, an Idea i was working on around a year ago, and may have even posted, was breaking down the D&D classes in a triangle/ring pattern.

So you have pure melee at one point, pure magic at the second and pure 'skills' at the third. Linking those points in a ring were two more 'stops' between each point of hybridization so melee-magic and magic-melee were variants.

Using that I had 9 base classes that actually mapped (allowing for the idea that bards and rogues were more useful for what they knew how to do than magic or stabbinations... and yes, I intended to address that...) pretty well to existing classes.  

I never actually DID it because I realized that designing a game around massive lists of selectable powers, pre-coded, was actually pretty lame and a lot more effort than i wanted to do as a 'fun project'.

After a certain point you get to redundancy of effect anyway.  In a way the only reason to pick a Ranger over a Paladin, mechanically, is because you want a pet instead of a collection of nifty minor buffs.

Ditto the barbarian over a fighter: all you are trading is innate heavy armor and tactical flexibility for... DR and a few extra hit points? The ability to rage?

I mean, if you were planning to play a half naked fighter with a big ax, you could actually play a fighter and spend some of your bonus feats on toughness. Its mechanically inferior but conceptually identical.
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The 15 Core Classes
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2012, 07:15:54 AM »
I prefer

Warriors
Ranger, Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian

Caster
Magic User (lets say Wizard), Priest, AN Other with a non vancian spell model

Rogue
Thief, Bard

A druid is just a Priest who drops a few casting levels and takes some daily/at will powers
A Monk should just be a figther who drops armour use for special at will daily powers

In a perfect world I would cut the whole lot down to 3 classes and have sub-classes whcih are just specific options

So a Paladin is just a fighter who drops some combat skills in return for daily/at will powers
A ranger is just a fighter wo drops comabt skills etc etc

You end us with 3 classes (I could cope with  wizards and Priests being separated) and a number of set sub-classes or archetypes which are set paths through the selection of options.

Some DMs might allow their PCs carte blanche to create their own archetypes from the options I would not allow that and set the archetypes based on DM choice and Setting.

Not suprising in light of my other recent posts htis is exactly how my heartbreaker looks.

Warrior
Archetypes include
Knight, Pirate, Kensai, Assasin, Ranger

Caster
Archetypes include
Sage, Priest, Wizard, Alchemist, Demonologist, Templar

Rogue
Pirate, Assassin, Thief, Spy, Smuggler

3 classes llets me set niche protection up to
Warrior = Combat
Caster = Magic
Rogue = Skills

workign well on paper the devil though as always is in the detail....
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RandallS

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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2012, 08:01:03 AM »
I don't see the classic Ranger (aka as TSR D&D did it) as stealth-based. A Ranger is a fighter with outdoor survival skills and a favored enemy or two. No real stealth abilities in there. The 3e ranger was similar as I recall but may have stressed two weapons for some weird reason (or maybe that was just the most common build the charop people used).  The 4e ranger was completely different, I think.
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jibbajibba

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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2012, 08:13:25 AM »
Quote from: RandallS;518716
I don't see the classic Ranger (aka as TSR D&D did it) as stealth-based. A Ranger is a fighter with outdoor survival skills and a favored enemy or two. No real stealth abilities in there. The 3e ranger was similar as I recall but may have stressed two weapons for some weird reason (or maybe that was just the most common build the charop people used).  The 4e ranger was completely different, I think.


The 2e ranger got 2 weapon fighting for free... lord only knows why.

One of the odd things is that the Ranger is so tied to LotR whereas Aragorn is a certain cultural ranger and Hawkeye (last of the Mohicans not MASH) or Atalanta would make just as good a case of being of the class.

But again a ranger is just a fighter sub-class with certain character options just like a paladin :)
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jhkim

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The 15 Core Classes
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2012, 12:33:29 PM »
Quote from: jibbajibba;518714
3 classes lets me set niche protection up to
Warrior = Combat
Caster = Magic
Rogue = Skills

workign well on paper the devil though as always is in the detail....

This is roughly the split of the three classes in Blue Rose / True20.  

I disliked it, personally.  I felt that if the classes didn't have any flavor to them, then why not just go all the way and have a classless system?  That would be simpler and more flexible, in my opinion.  

These core classes only provide niche-protection per se if you disallow having a character who mixes between these three areas of focus - such as a character who has spells but also some combat skills.  In D&D, there are plenty of gradations between these three, like wizard -> cleric -> paladin -> fighter who shade from magic focus to combat focus.

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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2012, 01:03:02 PM »
Actually jhkim, that was the impetus behind my idea (expressed geometrically from a design standpoint, admittedly). The Blue Rose/True 20 breakdown was breathtaking in its stunning obviousness (To me), and utterly bland in operation.

So while classes can break down into three main groups, a class based system benefits from more classes, more options to a point.

My 'method', obviously, was to focus on pre-built classes that didn't directly overlap in how they mixed the three legs of the tripod/triangle/troika/whatever.

That way you could have a pure spell caster and a pure rogue/expert and between them two mechanically different spellcasting rogues (one more magical and more more skillful), instead of two (or more) spell casting rogues that were really just the same class with skins on.
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2012, 01:30:25 PM »
More like four groups of three.  Since I can't figure how these last three relate to each other I'll just lump them together as miscellaneous-  Look! It's the Others group.  Why wouldn't Psionicists/Psions fall under magic user, mechanically they may as well be?

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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2012, 02:15:29 PM »
Yeah, I don't get what's so radical about this. For years, its been known that there are really four classes in D&D: Fighter, Cleric, magic-user and rogue. And you can put all other classes into one of those types.  Druid's a type of cleric, bard a kind of rogue, paladin a kind of fighter, etc etc.

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The 15 Core Classes
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2012, 02:20:50 PM »
Quote from: RandallS;518716
I don't see the classic Ranger (aka as TSR D&D did it) as stealth-based. A Ranger is a fighter with outdoor survival skills and a favored enemy or two. No real stealth abilities in there.


Without stealth, he's not going to survive long.  Hunters MUST be stealthy.

Spike

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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2012, 02:41:51 PM »
Nothing is particularly radical about it per se.  In general, I find most eye opening ideas are simply something obvious that wasn't pointed out before to the person getting their eyes opened.

But, as you'll note, we actually take it a step further than the four class breakdown you pointed out was core.  Clerics are either fancy fighters who cast spells or honkin' powerful ass spell casters who get armor and hit points.

The slight difference in spell lists is a trival difference.
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