QuoteIt's lame.  When corruption is a matter of moral compromises, until a last step is voluntarily taken across a line, then you have an evocative story.  When it's just a matter of morally-neutral acts hijacking your character, then corruption is no more an interesting story element then getting bit by a zombie in a zombie apocalypse story is.  There's no moral component to it; falling means that you miscalculated your risk profile just like an adventurer dashing across a possibly-trapped hallway or a survival-horror zombie protagonist trying and failing to fight off a mob of zombies to save their companions.  It makes what should be a dramatic and moral calculus a physical, tactical math problem.

It simply means you were wrong all along that you can be benevolent necromancer, and that necromancy is not evil but it's very nature.
Maybe you disagree with moral nature of Ravenloft - doesn't matter as long as you're in, morality is exactly as physically real as a DISEASE.
And it's cool - precisely because it counterintuitive.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 01, 2021, 01:47:13 PM
Corruption is one of those things where it has to be drawn out, and reasonably subtle.

Warhammer 40,000 actually illustrates this well with the problems inquisitors face. How do they battle the Ruinous Powers? Do they take up the weapons of the xenos, such as the aeldari (eldar)? Do they plumb the forbidden lore of the warp to fight it with its own weapons? Every little step, a compromise, a shortcut taken in the name of the greater good (not related to the Tau greater good).

Ravenloft's Powers checks should be like that. Few PCs are going to commit some of the outright sins and crimes listed in the books. But the temptation should be there to use certain items and spells that are more effective against the monsters they fight. Luring them on, because after all, the Dark Powers can always use another servant.

   I think Eisenhorn the Inquisitor's path is one of the absolute best to illustrate a path from pious righteousness to one that is quite corrupted (but still functioning for the greater "good") and likely to end up much like an extremely corrupted inquisitor (quixos) down the road.   It was always little things and transgressions Eisenhorn kept making and taking to edge him closer to his goals (always stopping some huge plot or evil).  But the path of compromising principles leads to where Eisenhorn goes from using secrecy and infiltration (borderline Heresy to some puritans like Voke) to outright summoning and binding daemonhosts to carry out his will.   Eisenhorn goes from a puritan aligned inquisitor to an extreme radical, and honestly a heretic.

Quote from: oggsmash on June 02, 2021, 03:08:15 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 01, 2021, 01:47:13 PM
Corruption is one of those things where it has to be drawn out, and reasonably subtle.

Warhammer 40,000 actually illustrates this well with the problems inquisitors face. How do they battle the Ruinous Powers? Do they take up the weapons of the xenos, such as the aeldari (eldar)? Do they plumb the forbidden lore of the warp to fight it with its own weapons? Every little step, a compromise, a shortcut taken in the name of the greater good (not related to the Tau greater good).

Ravenloft's Powers checks should be like that. Few PCs are going to commit some of the outright sins and crimes listed in the books. But the temptation should be there to use certain items and spells that are more effective against the monsters they fight. Luring them on, because after all, the Dark Powers can always use another servant.

   I think Eisenhorn the Inquisitor's path is one of the absolute best to illustrate a path from pious righteousness to one that is quite corrupted (but still functioning for the greater "good") and likely to end up much like an extremely corrupted inquisitor (quixos) down the road.   It was always little things and transgressions Eisenhorn kept making and taking to edge him closer to his goals (always stopping some huge plot or evil).  But the path of compromising principles leads to where Eisenhorn goes from using secrecy and infiltration (borderline Heresy to some puritans like Voke) to outright summoning and binding daemonhosts to carry out his will.   Eisenhorn goes from a puritan aligned inquisitor to an extreme radical, and honestly a heretic.

Precisely. Eisenhorn's fall from grace is the example I was thinking of. And the saddest part is that his former student, Ravenor, admits it's almost inevitable. All you can do is try to push back the dark as much as you can before you fall off that edge.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 02, 2021, 04:00:05 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 02, 2021, 03:08:15 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 01, 2021, 01:47:13 PM
Corruption is one of those things where it has to be drawn out, and reasonably subtle.

Warhammer 40,000 actually illustrates this well with the problems inquisitors face. How do they battle the Ruinous Powers? Do they take up the weapons of the xenos, such as the aeldari (eldar)? Do they plumb the forbidden lore of the warp to fight it with its own weapons? Every little step, a compromise, a shortcut taken in the name of the greater good (not related to the Tau greater good).

Ravenloft's Powers checks should be like that. Few PCs are going to commit some of the outright sins and crimes listed in the books. But the temptation should be there to use certain items and spells that are more effective against the monsters they fight. Luring them on, because after all, the Dark Powers can always use another servant.

   I think Eisenhorn the Inquisitor's path is one of the absolute best to illustrate a path from pious righteousness to one that is quite corrupted (but still functioning for the greater "good") and likely to end up much like an extremely corrupted inquisitor (quixos) down the road.   It was always little things and transgressions Eisenhorn kept making and taking to edge him closer to his goals (always stopping some huge plot or evil).  But the path of compromising principles leads to where Eisenhorn goes from using secrecy and infiltration (borderline Heresy to some puritans like Voke) to outright summoning and binding daemonhosts to carry out his will.   Eisenhorn goes from a puritan aligned inquisitor to an extreme radical, and honestly a heretic.

Precisely. Eisenhorn's fall from grace is the example I was thinking of. And the saddest part is that his former student, Ravenor, admits it's almost inevitable. All you can do is try to push back the dark as much as you can before you fall off that edge.

   Well...since the former student goes and seeks his mentors counsel observing first hand his new bestie (Cherubael who at that point is down right chummy with eisenhorn) I am not so sure he is not already heretic in the eyes of the Order if they knew everything.   Not to mention his cavorting with the Eldar attempting to see the future, which is verboten.

   But I think the framing of those books, is the best example of how temptation to evil had definite unattainable pay offs you simply can not get if you play by the rules, and has consequences that may not manifest for a very, very long time.   You bringing them up is IMO the absolute best example I have seen in literature that can be easily translated to a role playing game.

Quote from: ShieldWife on May 31, 2021, 04:52:08 PM
I once had a thought about changing V:tM Humanity where there aren't rolls to lose Humanity, but players choose to give in to the Beast for mechanical benefits. In a combat where they are loosing, they choose to unleash their Beast to gain greater physical prowess but are forever a little less human. Then as Humanity declines, they gain greater supernatural abilities but also suffer from stronger vampiric weaknesses and feel greater compulsions to commit terrible acts, or specially as those acts can make them stronger.

The entire reason I consider V5 a failure is because all of the thematic enforcements are punitive. You're punished for being hungry, you're punished for violating Tenets, and you're punished for losing control. It's all stick and no carrot. The whole dark temptation of vampiric existence is completely absent.

Ironically for this site I'm getting back into (Ron Edward's) Sorcerer, which manages to hit these themes in a far more compelling way.