My brother owned Universe, I think we created a couple of characters. We never played and the rules looked kinda insane to me BITD (I was 9 or 10).

DQ we played a little (2nd edition) and I liked it: the Aspects were not that difficult to use in-game IMHO.
Personally I hated the fact you had to roll to play non-humans and think that the warrior option from the Dragon (non MUs get like 10,000 xp to buy skills and improvements) was kinda necessary (our GM at the time used it).

I bought 3rd edition when TSR published it but found it horribly nerfed:
- You had to roll to play non-humans AND non-humans have to pay twice or thrice the base XP to learn things
- Necromancy and Black Magic where removed
- Summoners could no longer summon devils/demons (whose stats where removed from the rules)

The only nice thing about 3rd edition was the addition of Rune and Shaping Magics.

It's funny how those formulas for skills and such seem like no big deal, after a few decades of business math, analysis, and spreadsheets.

Quote from: artikid;830901Personally I hated the fact you had to roll to play non-humans and think that the warrior option from the Dragon (non MUs get like 10,000 xp to buy skills and improvements) was kinda necessary (our GM at the time used it)

I know that article. Heck, I have that article (the series of them, the author now deceased - I recall his mother writing into Dragon).

Quote from: Gabriel2;830859No, it's not really that hard.  But every skill has its own success formula.  For example, here is the first skill in the Skill Summary section:

BC + AY + Battlefield SL + Environmen SL + SL^2 - (enemy Environ SL + enemy Battlefield SL^2)

BC is calculated as:
Move secretly, enemy unaware (15 x Terrain Value)
Move secretly, enemy aware (5 x Terrain Value)
Close Combat, enemy unaware (30%)
Ranged Fire, enemy unaware (50%)

That's just for the Ambush skill.

Scientific skills are BC + IN + SL^2  (Base Chance + Intelligence + Skill Level ^2)

Meanwhile, Technical skills are BC + IN^2 + SL^2

As you can see, it's not so much an issue with the math as it is with the presentation.  Base Chances are situational instead of the standard way most RPGs represent the character's skill level as the base chance and situations applying modifiers.

Yah, DQ is a structurally outstanding, and quite fun, game, but suffers from a lot of the mechanical nonsense that plagued pretty much every game written before 1985, with the possible exception of Runequest. Why a different weird formula for every use of every skill, instead of doing something obvious, like [relevant stat + 5 x skill level]? God only knows. We were all wearing polyester shirts and feathering our hair and snorting coke off the dashboards of our Pontiac's. You can't expect us to get shit like that right.

But a properly engineered version of DQ would be amazing — it has pretty much all the strengths of D&D, Runequest, Call of Cthulhu and The Fantasy Trip, with few if any of their various weaknesses. The only problems this game has are that few people remember it anymore, and its skill and experience quantification schemes are a bit off putting.

Quote from: Molotov;831162It's funny how those formulas for skills and such seem like no big deal, after a few decades of business math, analysis, and spreadsheets.

Until you're tired of doing the math while playing.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;831166Until you're tired of doing the math while playing.

No doubt, though my tolerance for basic math operations now is a lot higher than 30 years ago. Tablet support and such as well.

That said, I get that some folks don't care for math while playing (in general or mood dependent). My point was more it's a lot less now than it seemed then.

Quote from: Molotov;831167No doubt, though my tolerance for basic math operations now is a lot higher than 30 years ago. Tablet support and such as well.

That said, I get that some folks don't care for math while playing (in general or mood dependent). My point was more it's a lot less now than it seemed then.

Skillchecks need to be quick so role-play isn't put on hold for everyone. Anyway, there is a reason why no one plays the game.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;831168Skillchecks need to be quick so role-play isn't put on hold for everyone. Anyway, there is a reason why no one plays the game.

Um, ok. "Quick" is subjective, mathematical abilities vary, and how long something is "put on hold for" is subjective. I like my resolution systems quick too though.

DQ was the 1981 Origins Award winner, I believe. The reason the game is dead is likely more to do with the SPI buy out, but whatever. It's certainly not "state of the art".

Lol - one of my good friends (and a fantastic GM) had just commented elsewhere that he was quite fond of DQ ... but found the system ... ah, shall we say lacking.

Yeah, I would say it's had surprising staying power for a game whose IP was actively buried.

About the "Warrior Option" article, I like the author's idea overall but he overlooked the fact there is already an advantage to playing non-mages, which is that you get a 20-point boost to magic resistance.

Also, as a response to the same issue, the original designer gave the option of increasing the starting wealth of non-mages. Not sure if this was made official in 2e.

And finally, within the rules, MA becomes a dump stat if you don't plan on doing magic, so that gives you a bunch of points to allocate elsewhere.

Quote from: Gabriel2;830859No, it's not really that hard.  But every skill has its own success formula.  For example, here is the first skill in the Skill Summary section:

BC + AY + Battlefield SL + Environmen SL + SL^2 - (enemy Environ SL + enemy Battlefield SL^2)

BC is calculated as:
Move secretly, enemy unaware (15 x Terrain Value)
Move secretly, enemy aware (5 x Terrain Value)
Close Combat, enemy unaware (30%)
Ranged Fire, enemy unaware (50%)

That's just for the Ambush skill.

Scientific skills are BC + IN + SL^2  (Base Chance + Intelligence + Skill Level ^2)

Meanwhile, Technical skills are BC + IN^2 + SL^2

As you can see, it's not so much an issue with the math as it is with the presentation.  Base Chances are situational instead of the standard way most RPGs represent the character's skill level as the base chance and situations applying modifiers.

Just to clarify, that's Universe, not DragonQuest. No square roots in DragonQuest. Just slightly clunky formulae like:

Thief Chance to Pick Lock
([Manual Dexterity]+[4xRank]-[6xLock Rank])


That's as bad as it gets.