Greetings!

Interesting. In the "Rainbows and Unicorns" dig site in Utah, paleontologists have discovered a group of T-Rexes that died in a pack, strongly suggesting that T-Rexes had a broader social life and organization than once believed.

T-Rexes running around together! I love it.

en-us/news/us/the-tipping-point-first-t-rex-mass-death-site-in-southern-us-found-in-utah-strengthens-evidence-of-pack-behavior/ar-BB1fPGP0?ocid=spartanntp

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That'll justify scaring my group sooner or later, good find Shark.

Your link is broken, SHARK.

Here's the press release:
https://www.blm.gov/press-release/evidence-indicates-tyrannosaurs-may-not-have-been-solitary-species-after-all
Here's the scientific paper:
https://peerj.com/articles/11013/

There's been speculation that tyrannosaurs were pack hunters before, but it was un-peer reviewed speculation. Good to see a real paper.

(Correction: Dino Gangs was about Tarbosaurus, not Tyrannosaurus rex, though they're closely related.)

Another recent paper speculates that Tyrannosaurus filled different ecological niches as they grew. In modern Africa, for instance, there are small carnivores (e.g. mongeese), mid-sized ones (wild dogs), and large ones (lions), and they are all specialized to hunt different animals. But in Cretaceous North America, those were all tyrannosaurs. Instead of mongeese, there were baby tyrannosaurs. Instead of wild dogs, there were juvenile tyrannosaurs (Nanotyrannus), and instead of lions there were giant adult tyrannosaurs like Sue. Up and down, it was all tyrannosaurs. And they were all adapted differently -- the juvenile tyrannosaurs are a lot more slender than the adults, and might have been very quick, for instance.
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6532/941

Quote from: Pat on April 20, 2021, 06:24:01 PM
Your link is broken, SHARK.

Here's the press release:
https://www.blm.gov/press-release/evidence-indicates-tyrannosaurs-may-not-have-been-solitary-species-after-all
Here's the scientific paper:
https://peerj.com/articles/11013/

There's been speculation that Tyrannosaurus rex was a pack hunter before, but it was un-peer reviewed speculation. Good to see a real paper.

Another recent paper speculates that Tyrannosaurus filled different ecological niches as they grew. In modern Africa, for instance, there are small carnivores (e.g. mongeese), mid-sized ones (wild dogs), and large ones (lions), and they are all specialized to hunt different animals. But in Cretaceous North America, those were all tyrannosaurs. Instead of mongeese, there were baby tyrannosaurs. Instead of wild dogs, there were juvenile tyrannosaurs (Nanotyrannus), and instead of lions there were giant adult tyrannosaurs like Sue. Up and down, it was all tyrannosaurs. And they were all adapted differently -- the juvenile tyrannosaurs are a lot more slender than the adults, and might have been very quick, for instance.
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6532/941

Greetings!

Thank you, Pat, for correcting the link. I don't know how that got screwed up though.

Indeed, though. It's great to see more studies on T-Rexes. I love T-Rexes.

Players love and hate them, too!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Absolutely horrifying, fortunately I'm separated from packs of T-Rexes by a comfortable amount of time.

The most horrifying thing about the paper is still the name of the quarry (Rainbows and Unicorns Quarry). There has to be an adventure seed in there.

And a minor correction: They're not T-rex (Tyrannosaurus rex) bones. The animal is Teratophoneus currie. Same family, even the same subfamily, but not the same genus. The difference between a fox and wolf, for instance. Teratophoneus is about 1/10th as massive as T. rex, or maybe a bit more (mass estimates vary), and its most notable characteristic is a short skull.

Hard to find art from reputable sources, but here's a skeletal reconstruction from the Natural History Museum of Utah, and they also link this artistic recreation (with a human for scale), so it's probably more accurate than most of the dubious versions on Deviant Art.

You'd have loved my PF sorcerer, Shark. One of his go-to tricks as a battle started was to summon celestial T-rexes. The group envisioned them as tyrannosaurs with gold and silver scales, teeny little wings on their back, and a slightly tilted halo. But no harp, since their arms were too short to play

Mechanically, celestial t-rexes are nothing to sneeze at. 153 HP, DR 10/evil, and resist cold/acid/electricity 15 mean it's hard to put down fast. The SR is somewhat anemic (15) but it might trip up weaker casters. As a celestial creature, though, it also gets smite evil -- and while it gains no to-hit bonus, a bite damage of 4d6+40 is going to make any evil foe wince. And smaller foes will be swallowed.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 20, 2021, 07:48:53 PM
You'd have loved my PF sorcerer, Shark. One of his go-to tricks as a battle started was to summon celestial T-rexes. The group envisioned them as tyrannosaurs with gold and silver scales, teeny little wings on their back, and a slightly tilted halo. But no harp, since their arms were too short to play

Mechanically, celestial t-rexes are nothing to sneeze at. 153 HP, DR 10/evil, and resist cold/acid/electricity 15 mean it's hard to put down fast. The SR is somewhat anemic (15) but it might trip up weaker casters. As a celestial creature, though, it also gets smite evil -- and while it gains no to-hit bonus, a bite damage of 4d6+40 is going to make any evil foe wince. And smaller foes will be swallowed.

Greetings!

DAYUUM! Summoning celestial T-Rexes! How is that not just the awesome, huh? That's fantastic!

It sounds like a whole lot of fun!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Pat on April 20, 2021, 06:48:32 PM
The most horrifying thing about the paper is still the name of the quarry (Rainbows and Unicorns Quarry). There has to be an adventure seed in there.

And a minor correction: They're not T-rex (Tyrannosaurus rex) bones. The animal is Teratophoneus currie. Same family, even the same subfamily, but not the same genus. The difference between a fox and wolf, for instance. Teratophoneus is about 1/10th as massive as T. rex, or maybe a bit more (mass estimates vary), and its most notable characteristic is a short skull.

Hard to find art from reputable sources, but here's a skeletal reconstruction from the Natural History Museum of Utah, and they also link this artistic recreation (with a human for scale), so it's probably more accurate than most of the dubious versions on Deviant Art.

Until they discover it's just a bunch of juvenile T-Rex or something like that. Wouldn't be the first time, remember the Triceratopsides?

Pseudonatural Tyrannosaurus
Size/Type: Huge Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 18d8+99 (333 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 80 ft. (16 squares)
Armor Class: 49 (-2 size, +6 Dex, +35 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 43
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+41
Attack: Bite +46 melee (3d6+30) or tentacle rake +46 melee (2d8+20)
Full Attack: Bite +46 melee (3d6+30) or 6 tentacle rakes +46 melee (2d8+20)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, rotting constriction, swallow whole, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: DR15/epic, electricity and acid resistance 35, low-light vision, scent, SR 90
Saves: Fort +21, Ref +17, Will +13
Abilities: Str 50, Dex 22, Con 31, Int 3, Wis 25, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +3, Listen +19, Spot +19
Feats: Alertness, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Run, Toughness (3), Track
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 18
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 19-36 HD (Huge); 37-54 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

The pseudonatural tyrannosaurus dwells beyond the planes as we know them.

Despite its enormous size and 6-ton weight, a pseudonatural tyrannosauruis a swift runner. Its head is nearly 6 feet long, and its teeth are from 3 to 6 inches in length. It is slightly more than 30 feet long from nose to tail. In natural form, it's covered with pebbly scales.

But when it transforms, it grows a coat of multi-colored feathered, with a mane-like fringe around the neck, and its jaw splits into six parts. The six parts of its jaw elongate and become tentacles, along which are scattered teeth and parts of its former jaw and skull.

Combat
A pseudonatural tyrannosaurus pursues and eats just about anything it sees. Its tactics are simple—charge in and bite, and then scream as its head breaks apart, and start raking with its jaw-tentacles.

A pseudonatural tyrannosaurus's natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a pseudonatural tyrannosaurus must hit an opponent of up to one size smaller with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

Swallow Whole (Ex)
A pseudonatural tyrannosaurus can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 2d8+8 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the pseudonatural tyrannosaurus's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A Huge pseudonatural tyrannosaurus's gizzard can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents.
Skills

Constant Insight (Su)
The pseudonatural tyrannosaurus makes all its attacks with a +15 insight bonus. The pseudonatural tyrannosaurus is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.

Rotting Constriction (Ex)
Once the pseudonatural tyrannosaurus has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check it makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, the pseudonatural tyrannosaurus regains 10 lost hit points.

Spell-Like Abilities
At will—blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow. Caster level 20th. The DCs are Charisma-based.

Alternate Form (Su)
At will, a pseudonatural tyrannosaurus can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass erupting from the head of prismatically feathered tyrannosaur, but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against pseudonatural tyrannosaurus in this alternate form.

A pseudonatural tyrannosaurus has a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 08:20:28 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 20, 2021, 06:48:32 PM
The most horrifying thing about the paper is still the name of the quarry (Rainbows and Unicorns Quarry). There has to be an adventure seed in there.

And a minor correction: They're not T-rex (Tyrannosaurus rex) bones. The animal is Teratophoneus currie. Same family, even the same subfamily, but not the same genus. The difference between a fox and wolf, for instance. Teratophoneus is about 1/10th as massive as T. rex, or maybe a bit more (mass estimates vary), and its most notable characteristic is a short skull.

Hard to find art from reputable sources, but here's a skeletal reconstruction from the Natural History Museum of Utah, and they also link this artistic recreation (with a human for scale), so it's probably more accurate than most of the dubious versions on Deviant Art.

Until they discover it's just a bunch of juvenile T-Rex or something like that. Wouldn't be the first time, remember the Triceratopsides?

The three Triceratops morphs were contemporaries, but Teratophoneus is about 10 million older than Tyrannosaurus, and lived further south.

And they know what a juvenile Tyrannosaurus looks like. They used to call them Nanotyrannus. But claiming those specimens were a separate genus was always dubious, and last year Woodward and other published a study where they looked at the histology of the bones and proved that they're really teenage (13 to 15 year old) members of Tyrannosaurus. They've speculated for years that the big T-rexes were solitary hunters, but the teenagers hung around in packs. But while it's a reasonable guess, there's been a lack of evidence. This latest study provides more support that that kind of behavior occurs, at least within the same family.

Quote from: Pat on April 20, 2021, 08:40:25 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 08:20:28 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 20, 2021, 06:48:32 PM
The most horrifying thing about the paper is still the name of the quarry (Rainbows and Unicorns Quarry). There has to be an adventure seed in there.

And a minor correction: They're not T-rex (Tyrannosaurus rex) bones. The animal is Teratophoneus currie. Same family, even the same subfamily, but not the same genus. The difference between a fox and wolf, for instance. Teratophoneus is about 1/10th as massive as T. rex, or maybe a bit more (mass estimates vary), and its most notable characteristic is a short skull.

Hard to find art from reputable sources, but here's a skeletal reconstruction from the Natural History Museum of Utah, and they also link this artistic recreation (with a human for scale), so it's probably more accurate than most of the dubious versions on Deviant Art.

Until they discover it's just a bunch of juvenile T-Rex or something like that. Wouldn't be the first time, remember the Triceratopsides?

They have, they used to call them Nanotyrannus. But claiming those specimens were a separate genus was always dubious, and last year Woodward and other published a study where they looked at the histology of the bones and proved that they're really teenage (13 to 15 year old) members of Tyrannosaurus. They've speculated for years that the big T-rexes were solitary hunters, but the teenagers hung around in packs. But while it's a reasonable guess, there's been a lack of evidence. This latest study provides more support that that kind of behavior occurs, at least within the same family.

I didn't know that, good to learn something new.

So in my totally not conan game I'm putting the T-Rex hunting in packs. That ups the pants shitting terror by a few orders of magnitude.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 08:43:55 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 20, 2021, 08:40:25 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 08:20:28 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 20, 2021, 06:48:32 PM
The most horrifying thing about the paper is still the name of the quarry (Rainbows and Unicorns Quarry). There has to be an adventure seed in there.

And a minor correction: They're not T-rex (Tyrannosaurus rex) bones. The animal is Teratophoneus currie. Same family, even the same subfamily, but not the same genus. The difference between a fox and wolf, for instance. Teratophoneus is about 1/10th as massive as T. rex, or maybe a bit more (mass estimates vary), and its most notable characteristic is a short skull.

Hard to find art from reputable sources, but here's a skeletal reconstruction from the Natural History Museum of Utah, and they also link this artistic recreation (with a human for scale), so it's probably more accurate than most of the dubious versions on Deviant Art.

Until they discover it's just a bunch of juvenile T-Rex or something like that. Wouldn't be the first time, remember the Triceratopsides?

They have, they used to call them Nanotyrannus. But claiming those specimens were a separate genus was always dubious, and last year Woodward and other published a study where they looked at the histology of the bones and proved that they're really teenage (13 to 15 year old) members of Tyrannosaurus. They've speculated for years that the big T-rexes were solitary hunters, but the teenagers hung around in packs. But while it's a reasonable guess, there's been a lack of evidence. This latest study provides more support that that kind of behavior occurs, at least within the same family.

I didn't know that, good to learn something new.

So in my totally not conan game I'm putting the T-Rex hunting in packs. That ups the pants shitting terror by a few orders of magnitude.

One of the really fun things is about dinosaurs it they're R-strategists, not K-strategists.

When we think of modern giant animals, we tend to think of elephants, and bison, and rhinos, and lions... all of which are mammals. That means they bear live young, and are raised by their parents for lengthy periods of time. Raising young that way is a heavy investment, so large mammals have relatively few young, and tend to care about them.

Dinosaurs are completely different. They laid eggs, and the eggs of the largest dinosaurs were smaller than the eggs of the elephant bird. Think about that for a second -- mom and dad are 2, or 10, or even 100 tons, and their kids are the size of baby birds. With that great a size disparity, there's no physical way to provide the same kind of parental care that mammals do, because the kids would be squashed. So yes, they made nests and might have protected them during the incubation period. But once the baby dinos were born, they were on their own.

So what happened? That's where ideas like this ecological partioning come in. One of the oddities of dinosaurs is they were all big. Well okay, not all. But if you take an average of the body sizes, the typical dinosaur was the size of the largest living rhinos, and they just got bigger from there. Except for the lineage that eventually lead to birds, dinosaurs never got consistently smaller. And when we look at the various fossil assemblages, there's a huge gap. There's the tiny mammals and proto-mammals that eventually led to us, the largest of which was the size of a badger, these rhino plus monstrosities, and almost nothing in between.

Why aren't there basically no mid-size dinosaurs? The speculation is it's because the growing dinosaurs took on different roles as they grew. They were long-lived animals, some of the largest might have had lifespans over a 100 years. Many also grew slowly (though others grew more quickly), and continued to grow throughout their lives. So a baby tyrannosaur might dash into the forest, and hide in the weeds, hunting little mammals. There might be whole swarms of them, or they might be behind every tree. Then the few that survive grow up, and become the Nanotyrannus morph, with very long slender legs that look designed for running -- it might have the speed to rival even the ostrich-mimic dinosaurs like Gallimimus. These adolescents might have also started to hang out in packs, and chase down the swiftest prey. Then, the few that survive become larger, much larger. And bulkier, with their heads becoming more massive and incredibly powerful. And they stop chasing down the swift runners, and stop hanging around with other tyrannosaurs, and start going after the slower but tougher nuts to crack, like the massive and armed Triceratops in their herds, or the heavily armored and knee-capping Ankylosaurus.

One species, three completely different niches. Speculation yes, but quite plausible speculation. And it's all because they lay eggs instead of having live births. You can do the same with other dinosaurs as well, like the sauropods, who were so immense compared to their tiny hatchlings.

Quote from: Pat on April 20, 2021, 09:02:47 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 08:43:55 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 20, 2021, 08:40:25 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 08:20:28 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 20, 2021, 06:48:32 PM
The most horrifying thing about the paper is still the name of the quarry (Rainbows and Unicorns Quarry). There has to be an adventure seed in there.

And a minor correction: They're not T-rex (Tyrannosaurus rex) bones. The animal is Teratophoneus currie. Same family, even the same subfamily, but not the same genus. The difference between a fox and wolf, for instance. Teratophoneus is about 1/10th as massive as T. rex, or maybe a bit more (mass estimates vary), and its most notable characteristic is a short skull.

Hard to find art from reputable sources, but here's a skeletal reconstruction from the Natural History Museum of Utah, and they also link this artistic recreation (with a human for scale), so it's probably more accurate than most of the dubious versions on Deviant Art.

Until they discover it's just a bunch of juvenile T-Rex or something like that. Wouldn't be the first time, remember the Triceratopsides?

They have, they used to call them Nanotyrannus. But claiming those specimens were a separate genus was always dubious, and last year Woodward and other published a study where they looked at the histology of the bones and proved that they're really teenage (13 to 15 year old) members of Tyrannosaurus. They've speculated for years that the big T-rexes were solitary hunters, but the teenagers hung around in packs. But while it's a reasonable guess, there's been a lack of evidence. This latest study provides more support that that kind of behavior occurs, at least within the same family.

I didn't know that, good to learn something new.

So in my totally not conan game I'm putting the T-Rex hunting in packs. That ups the pants shitting terror by a few orders of magnitude.

One of the really fun things is about dinosaurs it they're R-strategists, not K-strategists.

When we think of modern giant animals, we tend to think of elephants, and bison, and rhinos, and lions... all of which are mammals. That means they bear live young, and are raised by their parents for lengthy periods of time. Raising young that way is a heavy investment, so large mammals have relatively few young, and tend to care about them.

Dinosaurs are completely different. They laid eggs, and the eggs of the largest dinosaurs were smaller than the eggs of the elephant bird. Think about that for a second -- mom and dad are 2, or 10, or even 100 tons, and their kids are the size of baby birds. With that great a size disparity, there's no physical way to provide the same kind of parental care that mammals do, because the kids would be squashed. So yes, they made nests and might have protected them during the incubation period. But once the baby dinos were born, they were on their own.

So what happened? That's where ideas like this ecological partioning come in. One of the oddities of dinosaurs is they were all big. Well okay, not all. But if you take an average of the body sizes, the typical dinosaur was the size of the largest living rhinos, and they just got bigger from there. Except for the lineage that eventually lead to birds, dinosaurs never got consistently smaller. And when we look at the various fossil assemblages, there's a huge gap. There's the tiny mammals and proto-mammals that eventually led to us, the largest of which was the size of a badger, these rhino plus monstrosities, and almost nothing in between.

Why aren't there basically no mid-size dinosaurs? The speculation is it's because the growing dinosaurs took on different roles as they grew. They were long-lived animals, some of the largest might have had lifespans over a 100 years. Many also grew slowly (though others grew more quickly), and continued to grow throughout their lives. So a baby tyrannosaur might dash into the forest, and hide in the weeds, hunting little mammals. There might be whole swarms of them, or they might be behind every tree. Then the few that survive grow up, and become the Nanotyrannus morph, with very long slender legs that look designed for running -- it might have the speed to rival even the ostrich-mimic dinosaurs like Gallimimus. These adolescents might have also started to hang out in packs, and chase down the swiftest prey. Then, the few that survive become larger, much larger. And bulkier, with their heads becoming more massive and incredibly powerful. And they stop chasing down the swift runners, and stop hanging around with other tyrannosaurs, and start going after the slower but tougher nuts to crack, like the massive and armed Triceratops in their herds, or the heavily armored and knee-capping Ankylosaurus.

One species, three completely different niches. Speculation yes, but quite plausible speculation. And it's all because they lay eggs instead of having live births. You can do the same with other dinosaurs as well, like the sauropods, who were so immense compared to their tiny hatchlings.

Yeah, that's quite possible IMHO.

I'm still doing adult T-Rex packs, One male, the rest females, like lion prides but more dangerous.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 09:29:47 PM
Yeah, that's quite possible IMHO.

I'm still doing adult T-Rex packs, One male, the rest females, like lion prides but more dangerous.

You can do whatever you want....

.... as long as your Tyrannosaurus rex has feathers.