Essentially you are talking about something thats been around since pretty much the start and needs no mechanics.

The fighter shields the magic user so they can cast. The cleric heals the fighter so he can fight longer. The guys with shields protect the guys with pole arms. The character with Intimidation scares the NPC and then the one with Persuasion steps in and makes an offer. Or even just the presence of the intimidating looking character helps with that persuasion. Or sometimes the chain of info checks as one character picks up a clue and then another applys a different skill to it to learn a little more or something new.

Hence why I prefer natural synergies like this as opposed to purely mechanical ones.

Quote from: Omega;911190Essentially you are talking about something thats been around since pretty much the start and needs no mechanics.

The fighter shields the magic user so they can cast. The cleric heals the fighter so he can fight longer.The guys with shields protect the guys with pole arms.

A totally MMO approach that forces a single minded role creation.

Quote from: Omega;911190The character with Intimidation scares the NPC and then the one with Persuasion steps in and makes an offer. Or even just the presence of the intimidating looking character helps with that persuasion. Or sometimes the chain of info checks as one character picks up a clue and then another applys a different skill to it to learn a little more or something new.

Hence why I prefer natural synergies like this as opposed to purely mechanical ones.

Those  are mechanical synergies added on to represent reality so are my ideas for synergy. I think it is totally unrealistic to say that the players are their characters or that they do all their characters do even if you take a time lens 6s of player time represents 1 min. They can only account for maybe 6 hours of 14 hours waking time. The unrepresented time is not doing nothing- they are interacting so that should have some effect.

Quote from: cloa513;911289A totally MMO approach that forces a single minded role creation.

No. Just no.  It's an approach that assumes you're roleplaying, actually making decisions based on the reality of the character.  Archers have gone behind infantry for several thousand years before computers, MMOs or game theory.  

The fact that you're considering the physical reality that guys with plate armor and shields who engage the enemy via melee might actually want to be in front of the guys in cloth and leather who are engaging the enemy via range as some kind of MMO class-like niche protection only points out that you're obviously not using that approach.  Which makes perfect sense considering you are looking for actual mechanics for this.

Quote from: cloa513;911289Those  are mechanical synergies added on to represent reality so are my ideas for synergy. I think it is totally unrealistic to say that the players are their characters or that they do all their characters do even if you take a time lens 6s of player time represents 1 min. They can only account for maybe 6 hours of 14 hours waking time. The unrepresented time is not doing nothing- they are interacting so that should have some effect.

The unrepresented time should have some effect?  On what?  So I have a basketball team that plays together, but some of them go out drinking together as well.  Because two guys are drinking buddies, that's going to affect their Alley-oop?  If the characters spend time practicing, training etc, then that's something else, but again, can be simply built in to the core system without a "Universal Synergy System".

As an example Mythras/RQ6 has certain combat styles that grant special maneuvers, like Shield Wall or Phalanx.  If you have multiple combatants trained in Shield Wall, and they are in a position where they can use it, then they will receive special benefits.

If you're looking for some kind of thing like "I did really well on the roll for Skill X, so I'm going to invoke the mechanic that lets Kathy gain a bonus to her next skill and we'll just Ex Post Facto describe narratively how that works" then you want a strongly Narrative system like Modiphius 2d20 or MWP Cortex+.

Would a system with group abilities/powers be considered as having 'intercharacter synergy'?

IIRC Earthdawn had something like that, with shared group pattern items giving bonuses when acting together or generally in the interest of the group.
Noumenon (strange little indie game) has Rapport... which enables communication and healing within the group.
The Whispering Vault has various group powers that can develop over time.

Quote from: Simlasa;911326Would a system with group abilities/powers be considered as having 'intercharacter synergy'?

IIRC Earthdawn had something like that, with shared group pattern items giving bonuses when acting together or generally in the interest of the group.
Noumenon (strange little indie game) has Rapport... which enables communication and healing within the group.
The Whispering Vault has various group powers that can develop over time.

Generally speaking, yeah.  WFRP3 (another highly narrative game) gave you a character sheet for the Adventuring Party and players could take some of their OOC metapoint tokens off of their character card to plug into slots on the party card to give bonuses to the party.

Quote from: CRKrueger;911309No. Just no.

Actually, yes.  He's just wrong in thinking where it started.

Where do you think MMO's got the ideas from?  Where CRPGs got it?

Dungeons and Dragons, with it's four basic 'food groups'.  Computers (and consoles) meld it into a more cohesive role, because they remove the messy human element, but D&D is where it started.

We keep things simple in ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG.

Any character can "assist" another with their Skill Test, providing they have a Skill Rank in the Skill they intend to assist with. So, if a character needs help to swim using Athletics, the assisting Character must have at least one Skill Rank in Athletics.

Whenever they roll percentile dice (using a tens die and units die), the Assisting player puts their tens die into their friend's hand. Whenever the Character makes their Skill Test, they reference two tens die instead of one tens die. They then pick the better of the two tens die to succeed their Skill Test.

Simple, easy and fun. In fact, we covered it in our recent Kickstarter update.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;911353Actually, yes.  He's just wrong in thinking where it started.

Where do you think MMO's got the ideas from?  Where CRPGs got it?

Dungeons and Dragons, with it's four basic 'food groups'.  Computers (and consoles) meld it into a more cohesive role, because they remove the messy human element, but D&D is where it started.

Actually, no, because the original MMOs that did pull from D&D, like EQ, didn't have their own niches at first, Clerics, Druids, Shamans, etc could all heal, Fighter and Paladins could fight, etc.   It was only with expansions and the concept of Raiding that the Holy Trinity of EQ was born: Cleric (Healer), Fighter (Tank), and Enchanter (for Haste and Slow).  Lots of classes could do damage, but again, it was with raiding that the need for the dedicated roles of DPS (Rogue), Buff/Debuff (Shaman) and Utility (Necro, etc) were born.  That Raid mentality carried over into World of Warcraft and was well-established by the time the actual roles themselves were taken as a model by 4e.

So no, the stuff we're talking about is simple tactics, not a metagame design structure.  The MMO design structure came from MMOs not from D&D.

Is there anything at all in gaming you do have a fucking clue about the history of?

Quote from: CRKrueger;911357Actually, no, because the original MMOs that did pull from D&D, like EQ, didn't have their own niches at first, Clerics, Druids, Shamans, etc could all heal, Fighter and Paladins could fight, etc.

That was something I really liked about City of Heroes. You could generally accomplish a mission with whatever team you could organize if the players were decent. Self-healing was common. That, and the lack of dispensable loot, generally seemed to cut waaaay down on the numbers of assholes fucking up the game.

I don't really need/want rules for basic tactical setups... let me figure those out as I play. Otherwise it feels like power-combo stuff from certain wargames and CCGs... playing to the rules, rather than the setting/situation.

Quote from: CRKrueger;911357Actually, no, because the original MMOs that did pull from D&D, like EQ, didn't have their own niches at first, Clerics, Druids, Shamans, etc could all heal, Fighter and Paladins could fight, etc.   It was only with expansions and the concept of Raiding that the Holy Trinity of EQ was born: Cleric (Healer), Fighter (Tank), and Enchanter (for Haste and Slow).  Lots of classes could do damage, but again, it was with raiding that the need for the dedicated roles of DPS (Rogue), Buff/Debuff (Shaman) and Utility (Necro, etc) were born.  That Raid mentality carried over into World of Warcraft and was well-established by the time the actual roles themselves were taken as a model by 4e.

So no, the stuff we're talking about is simple tactics, not a metagame design structure.  The MMO design structure came from MMOs not from D&D.

Is there anything at all in gaming you do have a fucking clue about the history of?

More than you apparently.  First off, did you know that the Cleric class is actually a D&D only creation that was later adapted in the various Computer RPGs like Wizardry RPG?  Which predates MMOs, but not D&D.  In fact, Wizardry was modeled heavily from D&D, adapting a lot of it's foibles.  And Wizardry is still INCREDIBLY popular in Japan, which in short influenced the JRPG creation.

Any game that has a Cleric/Priest/Healer that gets their power from the Gods actually owes (intentionally or not) their heritage from D&D.  That includes Everquest with it's HEAVY ARMOUR WEARING CLERIC, which can use PLATE and USES BLUNT WEAPONS.  Just like the AD&D Cleric.  What?  You think it was coincidence?  Really?  Do you honestly think we're all that stupid?

I mean seriously, the bow using, two weapon fighting woodsman being called a fucking RANGER is not a clue?  The Paladin is a holy warrior knight type with an ability called LAY ON HANDS.  And that's information that you can get from the website itself!

The most famous MMO that every company still wants to mimic to this day, World of Warcraft, their little strategy game of the same name (or rather Warcraft) was an amalgamation of apparently Blizzard's employees' home game world and the big silly shoulders of Warhammer 40k (there's an interview with them stating that.  Wish I could find it again.)

I could easily go on and perforate your obviously lacking knowledge of what exactly D&D affected, but suffice it so say, any video game that has a dedicated healer, often worshiping Gods or divinely gifted, owes it's creation all the way back from the ideas set forth by D&D.  Because if they took the Cleric, they've often taken everything else too.

Quote from: Simlasa;911366That was something I really liked about City of Heroes. You could generally accomplish a mission with whatever team you could organize if the players were decent. Self-healing was common. That, and the lack of dispensable loot, generally seemed to cut waaaay down on the numbers of assholes fucking up the game.

I don't really need/want rules for basic tactical setups... let me figure those out as I play. Otherwise it feels like power-combo stuff from certain wargames and CCGs... playing to the rules, rather than the setting/situation.

...Did we play the same game?  City of Heroes had a Cleric class, it was called the Defender.  The Controller was the Wizard.  Now...  I will completely agree that the community was waaaaaaaay more chill and accepting than any other MMO I've ever played.  But the entire structure of the game was based off the four basic 'Food Groups' that D&D introduced all those years ago.

I may not have liked the Incarnates system that they set up for the Endgame (my main character was a 'Batman/Nightwing' type, Martial Arts/Willpower Scrapper) but man, if I don't miss the community.  Loved you guys, miss you lots.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;911454...Did we play the same game?  City of Heroes had a Cleric class, it was called the Defender.  The Controller was the Wizard.

Yeah it had those classes... but you certainly didn't NEED specific classes along...  like a Defender, to succeed on a mission. You could develop crossover abilities and the game didn't force any particular party build the way WoW tries to.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;911454More than you apparently.  First off, did you know that the Cleric class is actually a D&D only creation that was later adapted in the various Computer RPGs like Wizardry RPG?  Which predates MMOs, but not D&D.  In fact, Wizardry was modeled heavily from D&D, adapting a lot of it's foibles.  And Wizardry is still INCREDIBLY popular in Japan, which in short influenced the JRPG creation.

Any game that has a Cleric/Priest/Healer that gets their power from the Gods actually owes (intentionally or not) their heritage from D&D.  That includes Everquest with it's HEAVY ARMOUR WEARING CLERIC, which can use PLATE and USES BLUNT WEAPONS.  Just like the AD&D Cleric.  What?  You think it was coincidence?  Really?  Do you honestly think we're all that stupid?

I mean seriously, the bow using, two weapon fighting woodsman being called a fucking RANGER is not a clue?  The Paladin is a holy warrior knight type with an ability called LAY ON HANDS.  And that's information that you can get from the website itself!

The most famous MMO that every company still wants to mimic to this day, World of Warcraft, their little strategy game of the same name (or rather Warcraft) was an amalgamation of apparently Blizzard's employees' home game world and the big silly shoulders of Warhammer 40k (there's an interview with them stating that.  Wish I could find it again.)

I could easily go on and perforate your obviously lacking knowledge of what exactly D&D affected, but suffice it so say, any video game that has a dedicated healer, often worshiping Gods or divinely gifted, owes it's creation all the way back from the ideas set forth by D&D.  Because if they took the Cleric, they've often taken everything else too.

Jesus H. Christ you're either a disingenuous or ignorant fuck.  None of that has anything to do with the idea of "MMO Niche Protection" being started in D&D.

1. Jackass one claims tactics like ranks of combatants with armor up front, a tactic used for 5000 fucking years, is MMO niche protection.
2. Jackass two (who can't help himself trolling about old-school D&D despite the entire board laughing at him when he does) reinforces that claim with "healing clerics were invented by D&D", despite the actual development of niches in MMO, which was described.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;911454based off the four basic 'Food Groups' that D&D introduced all those years ago.

Keep fucking that chicken, idiot.  I'm sure the next twelve times you say it and are proved wrong it might become fact.  Oh no wait, it won't.

Here's the truth again for you...
TSR D&D produced classes.
MMOs produced the concept of The Holy Trinity and rigidly defined roles.
WotC 4e D&D (being essentially a MMO Raid Fight on paper) brought that back to D&D.

None of which has anything to do with putting the armor and shield guys in front, which was a battlefield tactic before people discovered Mathematics, let alone goddamn computers.

Speaking og natural synergies as opposed to forced ones. In Anarchy a friend and I would do missions way outside our range together. What allowed that was I was playing an engineer who could make a fighting robot and the other player could summon various ID monsters and buff skills. The trick was that in Anarchy equipment was stat-locked, but players discovered that the stat boosting skills allowed you to equip stuff potentially several levels higher than possible. Or buff someone else and allow them to build robots far better than normal in this case. So we'd hide in a corner and Id send out a robot to beat up stuff we ourselves couldnt handle. The ID monsters were assigned to follow the robot, heal it and act as backup since one could fight too.

Strategies that came about unexpectedly.

Quote from: CRKrueger;911467Jesus H. Christ you're either a disingenuous or ignorant fuck.  None of that has anything to do with the idea of "MMO Niche Protection" being started in D&D.

What are you going on about?  The hell?  Where is the evidence of this?  I have an interview with the co-creator of Wizardry one of the first Computer Roleplaying Games, and was one of the influences of MMO creation.

Quote from: CRKrueger;9114671. Jackass one claims tactics like ranks of combatants with armor up front, a tactic used for 5000 fucking years, is MMO niche protection.

Really?  I'm wondering where that came up.  Because most vanguards were lightly armoured.  The heavy guys, typically cavalry were kept in the back when the lightly to medium armoured infanty broke most of the enemy first.

And I don't know of any army that fielded warrior priests and magic users, able to cast spells.  So I have no idea what you're going on about.

EVERY soldier that was meant for Melee would be in armour and shield.  What are you smoking?  SHARE!  I WANT SOME!

Quote from: CRKrueger;9114672. Jackass two (who can't help himself trolling about old-school D&D despite the entire board laughing at him when he does) reinforces that claim with "healing clerics were invented by D&D", despite the actual development of niches in MMO, which was described.

Are you a time traveler?  The Cleric class shows up in 1974.  The first MMO is claimed to have been created in 1996.

Quote from: CRKrueger;911467Keep fucking that chicken, idiot.  I'm sure the next twelve times you say it and are proved wrong it might become fact.  Oh no wait, it won't.

Wizardry being influenced by D&D:  http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/wizardry/wizardry-interview.htm

That is an interview with the Co-Creator of Wizardry.  Fifth paragraph down.  Evidence that one Computer RPGs have some background with D&D.  Also, Rogue, a dungeon crawling ASCII game was created in 1980, six years after.the creation of D&D, and the creators claim that D&D was part of the idea behind it.  Multi-User Dungeons, also known as MUDs, another precursor to MMORPGs, was also influence and they were influenced by D&D.

Quote from: CRKrueger;911467Here's the truth again for you...
TSR D&D produced classes.
MMOs produced the concept of The Holy Trinity and rigidly defined roles.
WotC 4e D&D (being essentially a MMO Raid Fight on paper) brought that back to D&D.

You've missed so many steps.  You clearly don't know anything about video game history, and don't care enough to do any actual research, which is easy to find...

Quote from: CRKrueger;911467None of which has anything to do with putting the armor and shield guys in front, which was a battlefield tactic before people discovered Mathematics, let alone goddamn computers.

The fuck are you going about?  In WHICH WORLD did we have medieval four man teams of a man in armour, a magic user, a holy healer and an assassin???

Every soldier that went into battle, from infantry to cavalry to King would wear armour and shields if they were melee.  It looked nothing like D&D.  They fielded armies of hundreds to thousands.

What are you...

No, you're trolling.  That's obvious now.  And I fell for it again.

Oh the irony...

Let's look at the difference between Fighter/Cleric/Magic-User/Thief as present in the original games and Tank/Healer/CC/DPS present in MMOs.  

Tank as a MMO Role is a damage absorber.  High mitigation and the capability to force enemies to target the Tank through Taunt mechanisms.  Where was the Taunt mechanism in D&D?  Oh yeah, that's right, there weren't any, at all.  They were 100% a MMO invention.  They only entered D&D in late 3rd, 4th Edition.

Fighter as a D&D class could take damage better than most classes due to higher Hit Dice, better Con bonuses and better armor.  However, in OD&D and Basic, the Fighter is much less "tanky" then in AD&D, which isn't really a "Tank Class" as the only way to keep aggro is through effective positioning tactics.  Also, the Fighter doesn't match up to the Tank role as he can do just as much damage as supposed DPS classes, except in certain conditions.

The D&D Cleric Class is the closest to a MMO Healer Niche, however, most Healers are rather squishy and need to stay out of melee where of course, the D&D Cleric can wear the same armor as the fighter and isn't a bad Melee combatant either.

CC (Crowd Control) as an MMO niche has the capability to reduce the enemies offensive output.  Usually done through some form of Rooting in place so the mob is out of melee range of a PC, or Mesmerisation/Charm, which leaves them unable to do anything while affected.  That allows a group to engage and focus fire on one mob at a time, in order, until all are defeated.  There are some spells that both Cleric, Druid, MU and Illusionist can do to fulfill this role, however, again until 4e, the control capabilities of D&D spells are very lackluster in comparison with MMOs.

The D&D Magic-User has a flexibility unheard of in any MMO class.  Their spells allow them to fulfill any MMO role except Healer.  Offense, Defense, Utility, the MU has it all sans healing.  The problem is, before WotC D&D removed any and all impediments to free and unrestricted casting, MU's were very limited in melee, they had to stay unengaged, and were very squishy.  They also had to take time memorizing spells.  MUs were kind of like Batman.  Give them decent intel and time to prepare, watch out.  Caught unprepared, the beatings commenced but unlike Batman, they couldn't fight very well and could die.

DPS as a MMO niche is a damage dealer.  They cannot take damage like a Tank, they cannot Heal, they cannot do any CC, they do damage, period.

Thief as a TSR-era D&D class is piss-poor DPS, unless they can backstab.  The Fighter is better DPS and the Ranger is better still against humanoids.  Both get specialization, something a Thief does not.  It's only until WotC D&D when Backstab becomes "have any form of positional advantage against" - again, pulling directly from EQ, where only rear positioning was needed for the boost in damage.  The TSR-era D&D Thief is a utility class with their special abilities residing mostly OUT of combat.

So to recap...
1. MMO niches did not exist in TSR-era D&D.  Yes there were classes, but the classes had not been distilled into hyper-specific combat niches.
2. MMO niches were an invention of...wait for it...MMOs.  However, most MMOs from the beginning were structured along D&D class lines, but they also played according to D&D class lines.  3 Thieves and a Cleric could do an adventure just fine.
3. The MMO niches arose as a result of Raid combat in EverQuest, Bosses in DAoC and Elites in WoW.  The idea of Raids and the falsely boosted Elite class of mob, which didn't follow the normal rules of the game resulted in specialization of classes in order to deal with them.  Rangers, Paladins and Shadowknights couldn't really Tank in a Raid only Warriors.  Druids and Shamans couldn't really be main healer in a Raid, only Clerics.  No one could survive if the monsters weren't slowed and the additional mobs contained, thus Enchanter was necessary.  Lots of classes could do DPS, but no one better than the Rogue.  Thus the Holy Trinity (Cleric, Warrior, Enchanter) and Fantastic Four (Tank, Healer, CC, DPS) was born.  As EQ advanced and mobs became even harder in expansions (the first example of Raidflation in MMOs) Buff/Debuff classes like Shaman and Utility classes like Necro started to have important roles in Raids as well, but the 4 roles remained and were necessary for more difficult non-raid combat as well.
4. 4th Edition D&D brought the MMO niches to D&D combat for the first time.  The gameplay essentially being focused on the tabletop skirmish aspect of combat, where some combats took over an hour, the tactical nature required certain roles and those roles came straight from MMO niches.

D&D obviously influenced every single computer fantasy RPG ever.  However, the concept of Hyper-Specialized and required combat roles were an MMO evolution in response to the specific nature of MMO combat.  They did not exist in the original material.  Only when 4e specifically attempted to mimic the nature of MMOs did those roles enter D&D and the game was now influenced by one of it's successors.

It's interesting also to note that over the years, WoW, LotRO, Guild Wars 2 and Rift have introduced much more flexible classes with different specs and roles that the character can switch between based on what they're doing, so the classes are no longer shoe-horned into a single role.

None of this, however, has anything to do with what the OP claimed.  Bren suggested armored fighters with shields protecting the ranged combatants and spellcasters was an example of synergy, which of course it is.  An organic, natural synergy, which mirrors numerous real world combat examples going back thousands of years.  The OP incorrectly identified this as MMO niche activity, it has absolutely nothing to do with MMO niches.

The at-table play of Pre-3rd D&D, which Brady has demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge about, didn't have 4 characters one of each type of class.  That's a WotC-ism, Brady just doesn't know that fact.

Back in the day, you had a Ranger, a Elven F/M/U, a Half-Orc C/A and a Dwarf C/F.  You had 4 Hobbit Rogues, a Ranger and a M-U.   You had a Cleric and M-U with 12 Hirelings.  What you didn't have was a need to fill the party roles of Tank/Healer/CC/DPS before you set foot outside of the inn.

Yes, TSR and WotC D&Ds are very different in certain assumptions.