It occurs to me that the grenade argument rather proves a point about how the absence of a system can get in the way of roleplaying just as much as the presence of a system.

It sounds like a good idea: "let's just go with what is realistic". The problem is, as the argument proves, everyone out there has a slightly different idea of what "realistic" is. What may seem goofy and ridiculous to some participants may seem totally reasonable to others.

Systems can help here by stepping in when there's no agreement: if player X has one idea of what should realistically happen, player Y has another, and the GM just plain doesn't know, the GM can just say "fuck it, let's just go by the system. If the result seems unrealistic to either of you, just write it off as a freak occurrence and move on."

Maybe the real problem here is a disagreement over when the system is applied and who applies it. The guy who says "I have enough hit points, I could take a grenade blast easy!" is working on the logic that the system always applies, and everyone is allowed to apply it to the situation. The GM who says "You're jumping on a grenade, you're not even covering it with your helmet or any of the stuff you're meant to do, you're getting a gut full of shrapnel and that's the end of you" is taking the position that the system does not always apply, and the GM is the one who chooses when it does and does not apply. The middle position - where the grenade would have in theory done a fatal wound, but the player spends a Force Point/Fate Point/whatever to survive - would be something along the lines of "the system doesn't always apply, and players can use Fate Points for very specific purposes to state that it doesn't apply".

For what it's worth, I prefer games where the GM and group are free to ignore the system when the results would be unsatisfactory to them. The GM should be able to waive the rules whenever - either on their own judgement, or because they agree with the players that the rules should not apply in a particular case - and I like to give the players something like fate points in order to avoid the old "shot dead by a kobold in the first encounter" scenario. That said, players have a responsibility to abide by the GM's calls in those situations where they can't use a fate point to overrule the system, and the GM shouldn't take away protection PCs might otherwise enjoy under the system without due warning.

Jeff, had I been GMing, I would have said more than "Are you sure you want to do that?" - that's a kind of a vague and generic warning - it could mean "That's really stupid, do you really want to do that?", or it could mean "This is really dangerous, are you sure your character is tough enough to survive it?" Personally, I'd have said "Are you sure you want to do that? If the grenade goes off with you under it it's going to be fatal."

Then again, if I were the player in that situation then on hearing "Are you sure you want to do that?" I'd immediately ask "Well, I thought that seeing how my character's such a brick he might survive it. Is there something I'm missing here?"

This site seems to specialize in thread trainwrecks.

So I should have deprotagonized the hand grenade so that it could not kill a character if he covers its blast with his body?

Or I should have given the Player continual warnings about the lethality of covering an exploding hand grenade with his character's body so that he could not possibly make that choice? How is this different from the GM taking the Player's character sheet and turning it into a NPC?

Quote from: David R;360026Well the big thing here is that it could have been a heroic act.

Yeah. But it sounds like the player only wanted a heroic act with a little h and the GM wanted a Heroic Act.

Seanchai

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;360019At any rate, you take a grenade blast in the gut and there are stormtroopers advancing on your position. You're as good as dead anyway.

Because if you'd been standing right next to the grenade, if your toe was touching it, you'd be as good as dead? Nope. You'd take 4d6+1, live through it without comment, and kill the Stormtroopers.

What's making the PC as good as dead isn't the situation or the rules, it's the GM hearing "on the grenade."

Seanchai

Quote from: Imperator;360054Then I take back my previous statement, as it seems highly probable to die from a grenade explosion at point blank.

There's no need. So we're not talking about Star Wars Saga edition. No problem.

Page 39 lists the starting Vitality Points and Wound Points for the various character types. A Vitality of 1d6 + Con modifier is the lowest. You get the maximum at first level (and a random die roll thereafter). Wound Points equal your Constitution Score.

Page 116 says characters who suffer a direct hit (the square in which the grenade landed) suffer 4d6. Characters outside of that take 2d6.

Page 120 says frag grenades explode on impact and cannot deal critical damage.

Page 124 says Medpacs automatically stabilize dying characters.

Page 139 talks about dying characters. You don't drop below 0 Wound Points. Instead, you make an immediate Fort save DC 10. If you fail, you die. If not, you live at least one hour, at which point you make another Fort save.

Page 146 gives every character in the blast radius of a grenade a Reflex save DC 15 for half damage.

Page 139: Vitality Points represent avoiding damage. Wound Points represent withstanding physical trauma.

Page 143 says that Helpless Defenders are subject to Coup de Grace. Coup de Grace says, however, that it's a full round action, an automatic hit, and a critical hit. If the defender survives, he must make a Fort save DC 10+damage dealt to survive.

So the first question is why didn't the grenade explode on contact. It shouldn't have been sitting there for someone to jump on.

Second, the game has built in mechanics that deal with being right on top of a grenade - they deal twice as much damage and there's no Save. That means a character in that situation basically takes four times as much damage as someone in the next square.

Third, a non-combatant 1st level character might have 10 Wound Points and 6 Vitality Points. That's 16 altogether and the average damage for a frag grenade right underneath you is 13 points of damage.

Fourth, the damage goes to Wound Points, the greater of the two, not Vitality. If you believe that a character couldn't dodge, well, it's Vitality that represents dodging.

Fifth, the grenade can't technically Coup de Grace. Or inflict critical damage.

There's every reason to believe a 1st level non-combatant could survive a direct frag grenade hit in the first d20 Star Wars game.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;360071There's every reason to believe a 1st level non-combatant could survive a direct frag grenade hit in the first d20 Star Wars game.

Here's your bait-and-switch: You keep stating "could", with which I don't think anyone really has a problem, but the player in question was assuming "would".  I mean, the theory is fine, but unless you're playing an idiot or a retard, it makes for shit roleplaying.  Which brings us back to the original point.  Take another victory lap.

By any chance were you one of the people on RPG.net who argued that a katana "could" cut the gun barrel off a tank?

!i!

Quote from: Seanchai;360071There's no need. So we're not talking about Star Wars Saga edition. No problem.

Page 39 lists the starting Vitality Points and Wound Points for the various character types. A Vitality of 1d6 + Con modifier is the lowest. You get the maximum at first level (and a random die roll thereafter). Wound Points equal your Constitution Score.

Page 116 says characters who suffer a direct hit (the square in which the grenade landed) suffer 4d6. Characters outside of that take 2d6.

Page 120 says frag grenades explode on impact and cannot deal critical damage.

Page 124 says Medpacs automatically stabilize dying characters.

Page 139 talks about dying characters. You don't drop below 0 Wound Points. Instead, you make an immediate Fort save DC 10. If you fail, you die. If not, you live at least one hour, at which point you make another Fort save.

Page 146 gives every character in the blast radius of a grenade a Reflex save DC 15 for half damage.

Page 139: Vitality Points represent avoiding damage. Wound Points represent withstanding physical trauma.

Page 143 says that Helpless Defenders are subject to Coup de Grace. Coup de Grace says, however, that it's a full round action, an automatic hit, and a critical hit. If the defender survives, he must make a Fort save DC 10+damage dealt to survive.

If you brought up this list of rules in response to my decision that your character died when he covered the hand grenade with his body and it exploded, I'd simply remind you of my house rules which say both that when what the GM says happens and what the rules say happens conflict, what the GM says is what matters AND that the GM has zero tolerance for rules lawyers.

At the risk of getting my foot chopped off, I will stick a toe in here, and say that Randall's position, in light of standing House rules particularly against rules-lawyering (both of which I thoroughly agree with) is the correct one.
 
I would also venture to say that Senchai's impressive list of 8 rules spread across 107 pages of rule book certainly provide a valid proof of the OP's point. At least to me it does.

Since we're talking Star Wars here. Let's consider tropes. We all know that Star Wars borrowed heavily from WWII movies. In a WWII movie, when a guy falls on a grenade, he dies. End of story. Anything else is too messy and cheapens the effect of the action. Of course, this all assumes that the character isn't some kind of cyborg, robot, unusually tough alien, is wearing special armor or is using the force.

Quote from: RandallS;360074If you brought up this list of rules in response to my decision that your character died when he covered the hand grenade with his body and it exploded, I'd simply remind you of my house rules which say both that when what the GM says happens and what the rules say happens conflict, what the GM says is what matters AND that the GM has zero tolerance for rules lawyers.

Great. And when we're talking about the reasonableness of something that happened in your game, I'm sure that will be relevant.

Seanchai

Quote from: Ian Absentia;360073Here's your bait-and-switch: You keep stating "could", with which I don't think anyone really has a problem, but the player in question was assuming "would".

No, I argued that a 1st level non-combatant had a good chance of surviving a grenade. I have no idea what the character in question is like, but I'm supposing he's a) not 1st level and b) a combatant. Therefore, if such a low-level character could survive, I have no problem with a much tougher character supposing he would survive.

Seanchai

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;360077Let's consider tropes.

Let's do. How many times do you think Star Wars heroes survive something that would be a) fatal to another character or b) fatal in the real world?

It seems to me surviving - and succeeding against overwhelming odds and a kind of script immunity are Star Wars tropes.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;360077Anything else is too messy and cheapens the effect of the action.

If the player wanted to save the group by sacrificing his character, I would absolutely say surviving cheapens the act. Of course, that wasn't the intent of the player. Like Kaylee, he wanted to live.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;360071There's no need. So we're not talking about Star Wars Saga edition. No problem.

Actually there is a problem with your following arguement.

Quote from: Seanchai;360071Page 39 lists the starting Vitality Points and Wound Points for the various character types. A Vitality of 1d6 + Con modifier is the lowest. You get the maximum at first level (and a random die roll thereafter). Wound Points equal your Constitution Score.

Page 116 says characters who suffer a direct hit (the square in which the grenade landed) suffer 4d6. Characters outside of that take 2d6.

Page 120 says frag grenades explode on impact and cannot deal critical damage.

Page 124 says Medpacs automatically stabilize dying characters.

Page 139 talks about dying characters. You don't drop below 0 Wound Points. Instead, you make an immediate Fort save DC 10. If you fail, you die. If not, you live at least one hour, at which point you make another Fort save.

Page 146 gives every character in the blast radius of a grenade a Reflex save DC 15 for half damage.

Page 139: Vitality Points represent avoiding damage. Wound Points represent withstanding physical trauma.

Page 143 says that Helpless Defenders are subject to Coup de Grace. Coup de Grace says, however, that it's a full round action, an automatic hit, and a critical hit. If the defender survives, he must make a Fort save DC 10+damage dealt to survive.

None of these listed page numbers or rules that you quote are in the d20 Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook. So you are apparently not even referencing the rules that we were using. What the fuck are you desperately trying to prove here?

Quote from: Seanchai;360071So the first question is why didn't the grenade explode on contact. It shouldn't have been sitting there for someone to jump on.

Because I wanted to give the Players a chance to do something about the grenade before it went "BOOM!"

Quote from: Seanchai;360071Second, the game has built in mechanics that deal with being right on top of a grenade - they deal twice as much damage and there's no Save. That means a character in that situation basically takes four times as much damage as someone in the next square.

Except the pages you quote are for a different version of the game. Otherwise you are making my point for me here.

Quote from: Seanchai;360071Third, a non-combatant 1st level character might have 10 Wound Points and 6 Vitality Points. That's 16 altogether and the average damage for a frag grenade right underneath you is 13 points of damage.

Except in your question above you demonstrated that it doesn't matter.

Quote from: Seanchai;360071Fourth, the damage goes to Wound Points, the greater of the two, not Vitality. If you believe that a character couldn't dodge, well, it's Vitality that represents dodging.

Didn't I say that?

Quote from: Seanchai;360071Fifth, the grenade can't technically Coup de Grace. Or inflict critical damage.

I would think that smothering a grenade with your character's body was suicidal enough.

Quote from: Seanchai;360071There's every reason to believe a 1st level non-combatant could survive a direct frag grenade hit in the first d20 Star Wars game.

What part of, "we were using d20 Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook" did you not comprehend?

Another problem with the grenade is that the way you use it in a role playing game is different than the way you use it in real life.

In real life, a person that is directly being shot at won't throw a grenade, at least not accurately, because it takes a lot longer than simply shooting back. If you fire a bullet at someone, you can expect an effect as soon as you pull the trigger. Grenades on the other hand take a few seconds.

Grenades are used to clear areas or or suppress the enemy. They are thrown at very close range, and can't be used effectively when being shot at because it will get you, and potentially everyone around you killed.

In role playing games, people simply choose to throw a grenade whenever it suits them. Combat in RPGs almost always happens at wacky close range and unless you are playing first level d&d characters that are worried about AoOs, no one can do much to stop you from taking your turn.

Fixing the grenade issue would require the game designer to build his game with it in mind.