Quote from: Ian Absentia;359945I think he's asking if there was any particular reason to believe that the timer/delay mechanism had been activated.

Nah, it's more I'm wondering how the player knew the stormtrooper wasn't gonna pop around the corner and shoot him for his remaining 10 hit points.

But it is really stupid of me to try and figure out exactly what the hell was going on at a game table I wasn't at. I gotta trust Jeff's take.

Quote from: greatamericanfolkhero;359953Quick question: If the player had not jumped on the grenade, would everyone have been killed, or only taken the listed damage?

It would have been 4d6+1 against everyone in a 5m radius. Might have killed them, might not.

Quote from: Seanchai;359889People fifty years ago could fall on a grenade and live.

What percentage of grenade jumperoners was that true for? In games terms would those characters have been playable afterwards? Did they just get up and walk away?

In a way I think your arguments start to become an insult to the real heroes who have done stuff like this... suggesting that they didn't make a knowing sacrifice but that they somehow miscalculated, or were just idiots.

Quote from: jeff37923;359963It would have been 4d6+1 against everyone in a 5m radius. Might have killed them, might not.

So grenades are only instantly lethal if the force is concentrated on a single individual. That sounds reasonable to me.

Since the thread de-railed from the topic at hand...

Instant kill almost always sucks. "You die because you leaped on the grenade," also sucks.

It would have made sense though to treat the grenade like a critical hit and given the PC 8D6+2 damage. If he had gone to zero, then he could have spent a Force Point to stay alive but out cold for a while. No Force Point to burn? Okay, your PC dies.

The real world is unpredictable and impossible to portray mechanically. Thank goodness we are playing games here. But games have mechanics and some of them seem more "realistic" than others, but that is subjective.

What bothers me in games or game systems are rules design decisions that tend to suspend my immersion in a fictional setting. For example; in 4e D&D the idea of having magic items in the PHB and then allowing the players to create wish lists of the things they want for their PCs. It just goes against the grain of what magic items have always been about in D&D. It is a gamist aspect of D&D 4e that goes beyond my tolerance level for what I expect in a D&D game. To a lesser degree, "Marking" is also a problem I have with D&D 4e. Mark with what? Divine or arcane energy? Sure, that kind of makes sense. But marking with a Ranger's aim, or a Fighter's taunting glare, just doesn't keep me immersed in the game because it is non-sensical.

Hopefully that made sense.

Quote from: Drohem;359926Anyone, either in the real world or a fictional world, who assumes or surmises that falling on a grenade is not going to be instantly fatal is fatally foolish and is certainly not making any kind of intelligent or informed decision.

I imagine if falling on a grenade were always instantly fatal in the real world, that would be true. Of course, it's not.

Seanchai

Quote from: Ian Absentia;359929No mention of the use of armor, or shielding, or Force powers.

You don't think the character had any of those? In a Star Wars game? Because, obviously, I'm assuming the character did.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;359929Ironic, perhaps, because no one has made that claim.

Your end of the discussion has been anything but thinking in character.

Seachai

Quote from: Simlasa;359964What percentage of grenade jumperoners was that true for?

Shrug. Doesn't matter. It was true for at least one.

Quote from: Simlasa;359964In a way I think your arguments start to become an insult to the real heroes who have done stuff like this... suggesting that they didn't make a knowing sacrifice but that they somehow miscalculated, or were just idiots.

If our recent Palladium discussions have taught us anything it's that now is the appropriate time for you to play the race card, too...

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;359981Shrug. Doesn't matter. It was true for at least one.

Why should the rules favor freak accidents over the most likely outcome? His real chances of survival are nil. None of those guys who jumped on grenades had some fool-proof mental calculation that they'd live through it. They were saving their buddies.

QuoteIf our recent Palladium discussions have taught us anything it's that now is the appropriate time for you to play the race card, too...

Seanchai

Ok... whatever you say... you're a bear.

Quote from: Seanchai;359980You don't think the character had any of those? In a Star Wars game? Because, obviously, I'm assuming the character did.

[...snip...]

Your end of the discussion has been anything but thinking in character.

Jesus fuck.  Thank you for making this point crystal clear. Take a victory lap.

!i!

Quote from: PaladinCA;359976What bothers me in games or game systems are rules design decisions that tend to suspend my immersion in a fictional setting. For example; in 4e D&D the idea of having magic items in the PHB and then allowing the players to create wish lists of the things they want for their PCs. It just goes against the grain of what magic items have always been about in D&D.

That's not a rules design decision. It has nothing to do with how magic items work rules-wise. If they were detailed only in the DMG they would still function the same way. And there's no rule that players get whatever items they want. That's a suggestion for DMs.

Quote from: PaladinCA;359976To a lesser degree, "Marking" is also a problem I have with D&D 4e. Mark with what? Divine or arcane energy? Sure, that kind of makes sense. But marking with a Ranger's aim, or a Fighter's taunting glare, just doesn't keep me immersed in the game because it is non-sensical.

Just a little quibble: rangers don't mark.

Quote from: Seanchai;359979I imagine if falling on a grenade were always instantly fatal in the real world, that would be true. Of course, it's not.

Seanchai

No, my statement stands regardless.

Quote from: Seanchai;359979I imagine if falling on a grenade were always instantly fatal in the real world, that would be true. Of course, it's not.

Seanchai

I'd like to see you try and fall on a grenade. No? I thought not.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;359998I'd like to see you try and fall on a grenade. No? I thought not.

I'm not standing in front of a grenade, surrounded by people I want to save. Were I and knowing that people can survive such attempts, I might consider doing so.

But how many times have you fallen on a grenade or witnessed someone do it? None? So what would you be basing your idea that it's instantly fatal on?

Seanchai

Quote from: Simlasa;359985Why should the rules favor freak accidents over the most likely outcome?

We're not talking about rules. We're talking about Star Wars character's perceptions, in specific, could they have some expectation of surviving a fall on a grenade.

The OP asserts that a character in Star Wars should always expect to die when falling on a grenade because, as I understand it, people die when falling on grenades in the real world.

I think that's bunk as a) people don't always die when falling on grenades in the real world and b) the Star Wars universe isn't the real world. A character in a game wouldn't have any knowledge of our real world, just the grenades, Bacta Tanks, Surgery Kits, et al., of his world.

What the character has a conception of is a grenade that apparently does 4d6+1. A starting non-combatant has 18+Con modifier in Hit Points. In other words, there's a good chance that it wouldn't even take down a starting character who was standing right next to it.

Seanchai