Oy, this thread is going nuts again.

Look: Jeff was more right than wrong with his rules interpretation. In fact he was so right that it's been pointed out that the case isn't even a very good example for the thread.

1. Wound points in SW D20 reduce the abstraction of D&D-style hp.
2. If you're deliberately trying to get in the way of a grenade blast, it should obviously go straight to wounds. That is, assuming the concept of "getting in the way" is allowed.
3. Getting in the way is supported by the cover rule. But the same rule says that the covering character will take damage.
4. Therefore, again, a character should take at least double damage if trying to block a grenade blast from hitting someone else. Once for himself, once for the other person.
5. Being in contact with an explosion isn't the same as lying on top of a grenade and trying to contain the explosion against the ground. Physics 101: the force has to go somewhere.

Again: why is it valid to bring real-world physics into the discussion instead of sticking to the letter of the rules? Because if you stick to the RAW, the concept of smothering a grenade doesn't exist. It's been imported from the real world.

Jeff only made one deviation from a common-sense, conservative interpretation of the rules: not rolling dice.

Quote from: Seanchai;360406Eh. Star Wars is, basically, a superheroic setting. You have folks who are tougher and more capable than the average person. They have access to abilities and equipment beyond the grasp of average mortals. They run around taking on squads of goons and the occasional Big Bad. They save the day.

Seanchai

By that reasoning all Hollywood action movies are superhero movies then... people doing ridiculous stunts without any consequences unless the script calls for it.
Doesn't work for me... 'Superhero' in modern parlance would still mean the guy has a specific reason/power for not getting blown up by the hand-grenade. Superman isn't taking any risks when he jumps on the thing because he's wearing magic jammies.
I don't remember any powers/equipment in Star Wars that rendered the characters indestructible... they just had script immunity... because it was a movie... not an RPG. If Han Solo had thrown himself on a hand-grenade and gotten back up... smokey, rumpled, but basically OK... it would have veered off irrevocably into slapstick comedy.

All of this squabbling is also reminding me of why I don't want to play in games adhering to licensed settings.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;360415Oy, this thread is going nuts again.

Basically just because GnomeWorks had a crap GM once and Seanchai just likes to argue and will keep changing what he's saying to ensure it.

The rest of us have a broad consensus of sane gaming.

Quote from: jeff37923;360414Actually, the grenade incident was one of a few that brought me to the realization that the d20 Star Wars systems didn't emulate the Star Wars setting to my liking, and so I ditched that game system and went back to WEG d6 Star Wars.

Probably a good call.

Quote from: Kyle AaronBasically just because GnomeWorks had a crap GM once ...
The rest of us have a broad consensus of sane gaming.

An assumption such as this is not witty, it's asshattery.

Quote from: David R;360412I dunno. What genre was being emulated ? I mean the whole Death Star chase where Solo chases the Storm Troopers into a deadend and they turn around, he shoots one of them (at close range) turns round and runs away....I mean if he can survive that....

Regards,
David R

Yeah the contract says 'when storm troopers shoot at Han Solo they will miss' but it also says 'should Han Solo ever get hit by something he will take damage'.

if you say direct explosion from a genade can't kill you you are basically saying 'you can not be killed' . That was not my interpretation of the star wars genre

Quote from: jibbajibba;360441Yeah the contract says 'when storm troopers shoot at Han Solo they will miss' but it also says 'should Han Solo ever get hit by something he will take damage'.

if you say direct explosion from a genade can't kill you you are basically saying 'you can not be killed' . That was not my interpretation of the star wars genre

This contract applies to every action hero, I don't really think it is a Star Wars genre thing.

What I'm trying to get at is, that genre emulation is pretty subjective and when it comes to characters dying in a game, it should be handled very carefully. That's why I think kyle's suggestion is pretty good.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;360442This contract applies to every action hero, I don't really think it is a Star Wars genre thing.

What I'm trying to get at is, that genre emulation is pretty subjective and when it comes to characters dying in a game, it should be handled very carefully. That's why I think kyle's suggestion is pretty good.

Regards,
David R

Yeah I suggested just doing max double damage myself about 200 posts ago
As Kyle says there is a broad consensus with a couple of exceptions.

Quote from: jibbajibba;360443Yeah I suggested just doing max double damage myself about 200 posts ago

My bad. Sorry about that, I must have missed it.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: jibbajibba;360410Sorry I must have expressed myself badly as you didn't get the point. In the film if Han Solo had fallen on a grenade and not died it would have broken the narative contract between the movie and the viewer.

Again, no. Action movie heroes survive all sorts of things that would likely be fatal in the real world. Bombs, bullets, falls. Usually, they indicate that they were affected by groaning, holding their side, blacking out for a period, having a bloody costume afterward, et al..

Seanchai

Quote from: Simlasa;360419By that reasoning all Hollywood action movies are superhero movies then...

To a degree. But don't forget that in Star Wars, a good number of the characters have powerz.

Quote from: Simlasa;360419If Han Solo had thrown himself on a hand-grenade and gotten back up... smokey, rumpled, but basically OK...

We're not talking about being basically okay. The player thought his character would live, not stand back up okay.

Seanchai

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;360420...Seanchai just likes to argue and will keep changing what he's saying to ensure
it.

It's not that I enjoy arguing, it's that I won't capitulate just because some dude on the Internet thinks I'm wrong. You and the others haven't brought up anything that's made me change my mind.

But I'm curious: What am I saying that I keep changing?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;360420The rest of us have a broad consensus of sane gaming.

And yet, you think the GM's call was wrong. Others here think it was wrong. It sounds like the players at the table thought it was wrong. I'd bet if you took the scenario down to the FLGS or convention, the majority of folks would also think it's wrong.

There's a broad consensus here, but I'm not opposing it.

Seanchai

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;360415Again: why is it valid to bring real-world physics into the discussion instead of sticking to the letter of the rules? Because if you stick to the RAW, the concept of smothering a grenade doesn't exist. It's been imported from the real world.

Fine. But we're also importing the real world capabilities of real world grenades. You're telling that the Star Wars grenades as a deadly as real world grenades, but Star Wars grenades are taken from a movie.

Moreover, we have the exact capacity of the grenades and they're just not that deadly. For example, we know how much damage a character standing directly over it would take and a 1st level average non-combatant has a good chance of being conscious after the blast.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;360452It's not that I enjoy arguing, it's that I won't capitulate just because some dude on the Internet thinks I'm wrong.

The irony here is delightful.

QuoteBut I'm curious: What am I saying that I keep changing?

[/i]Try this on for size.  In response to Simlasa's example of Han Solo taking a blast from a grenade and walking away, you wrote:

Quote from: Seanchai;360451We're not talking about being basically okay. The player thought his character would live, not stand back up okay.

Quote from: jeff37923;359635Then the Player said, "Yeah, I have enough hit points that I'll be able to take the maximum blast damage with no problem".

This is at least the second time that you've conformed your interpretation of Jeff's original post to meet your shifting position.  You start with the assertion that Star Wars characters are superheroes and should be able to get away with it, then you shift into the assertion that people survive direct grenade blasts "all the time" (the absurdity of "all the time" still makes me giggle), you insist that Jeff's player wasn't just comparing hit points in spite of a direct statement to the contrary, then you say that that's okay and that it really is roleplaying.  Then you shift into the argument that a player ignoring information gleaned from Mythbusters, Wired magazine, and a Google search is the antithesis of roleplaying.  And then...oh, shit, I really stopped paying any serious attention to you after that when it became apparent that you'd just keep shifting from one lame defense to another to keep the argument going and deny that you're full of crap.  It looks like you've just sort of reiterated variations on a theme.  But you'll deny all this, too, right?

QuoteThere's a broad consensus here, but I'm not opposing it.

I'm going to chuckle about this for the rest of the day.

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;360456This is at least the second time that you've conformed your interpretation of Jeff's original post to meet your shifting position.  

I don't think "maximum blast damage with no problem" means walking away after doing cartwheels. It's my impression that the player meant his character could survive the blast without becoming unconscious or dying.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;360456You start with the assertion that Star Wars characters are superheroes and should be able to get away with it, then you shift into the assertion that people survive direct grenade blasts "all the time"

Actually, I didn't say anything remotely like that. I said people used their experience and knowledge to make accurate guesses all the time, and clarified that by "all the time" I didn't mean one hundred percent of the time but routinely.

But my starting to talk about real world grenades, for example, isn't a shift in position, it's a response to the other side's argument.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;360456... you insist that Jeff's player wasn't just comparing hit points in spite of a direct statement to the contrary....

Again, I never said anything remote like that.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;360456Then you shift into the argument that a player ignoring information gleaned from Mythbusters, Wired magazine, and a Google search is the antithesis of roleplaying.

Again, that wasn't an argument I made.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;360456And then...oh, shit, I really stopped paying any serious attention to you after that...

Clearly, you weren't paying attention at all.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;360456It looks like you've just sort of reiterated variations on a theme.  

So I'm simultaneously shifting positions and reiterating the same positions?

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;360460So I'm simultaneously shifting positions and reiterating the same positions?

Yes.  It's like a rickety, mis-shapen wheel.  And now you're being just plain dishonest in all of your denials above.

I don't use this term lightly, but you're a troll.

!i!