Quote from: ggroy;531572Prussia has not existed in over 65+ years?

Exactly.  So if you don't use it, you lose it.

Quote from: ggroy;531572Prussia has not existed in over 65+ years?

And the Prussian language became extinct a longer time ago.

Quote from: Settembrini;530958Traveller, without any doubt. A phoney question if you ask me, SWN does not even have boardgames. So it is not a proper system, crippleware if you will, right from the start.

SWN, without any doubt. A phoney question if you ask me, Traveller has boardgames. So it is not a proper system, feature bloat syndrome if you will, right from the start.

Quote from: Claudius;531612And the Prussian language became extinct a longer time ago.

Indeed. The Prussian culture was destroyed between the 1230 and 1360 (at the time of Battle of Grunwald, 1410, there was no trace of it left) by Teutonic Order (which, admittedly, was invited by Konrad of Masovia - the later Teutonic betrayal and capture of Gdańsk, locking Poland off from Baltic Sea, caused centuries of warfare). Prussians are as German as Bratwürst. Although technically speaking, majority of original Prussian and Teutonic lands are nowadays in hands of Poland. Although nowadays, the original lands of Prussians are mostly in hands of Poland, Lithuania, Russia, Latvra and Estonia.

i have to reflexively say trav over SWN, due to my bias against class/level systems.  they're fine for things like d&d, or pulpy fun like gamma world or j arcane's upcoming hulks & horrors.  but that mechanic breaks immersion, etc. for me, and i'd prefer my SF to be more. . . simulationist?  and trav provides that.

we return you now to your regularly scheduled prussian variety hour

A system that has boardgames associated with it, has a clear, formalized understanding of strategic and grand strategic scales and intereaction scheme of the game world.

A system without is to be doubted in that field until proven otherwise.

Science Fiction rpgs without strategic and grand strategic levels of interaction are prone to become navel-gazing exercises in space dungeoneering and/or mommy-daddy relationship whinery ...in a STARSHIP!!

They are ultimately, enemies of enlightenment. Now, you might add the missing elements. But then, we do not need to talk about system comparison.

Quote from: Settembrini;531887A system that has boardgames associated with it, has a clear, formalized understanding of strategic and grand strategic scales and intereaction scheme of the game world.

A system without is to be doubted in that field until proven otherwise.

Science Fiction rpgs without strategic and grand strategic levels of interaction are prone to become navel-gazing exercises in space dungeoneering and/or mommy-daddy relationship whinery ...in a STARSHIP!!

They are ultimately, enemies of enlightenment. Now, you might add the missing elements. But then, we do not need to talk about system comparison.

Someone please tell me this isn't happening.  (Does a Will roll.)

Quote from: Settembrini;531887A system that has boardgames associated with it, has a clear, formalized understanding of strategic and grand strategic scales and intereaction scheme of the game world.

A system without is to be doubted in that field until proven otherwise.

Science Fiction rpgs without strategic and grand strategic levels of interaction are prone to become navel-gazing exercises in space dungeoneering and/or mommy-daddy relationship whinery ...in a STARSHIP!!

They are ultimately, enemies of enlightenment. Now, you might add the missing elements. But then, we do not need to talk about system comparison.

He. Is. Correct.

I must be drunk.....

The space dungeoneering aspect is correct from my limited exposure to SWN. But I doubt a starship focus is a necessary precondition on SF gaming. My model for a campaign, if I ever ran one, would be Vance's Oikumene, and although the novels set there have distinct game-like elements with semi-formalised structures, spaceship logistics are entirely absent, even in novels which explicitly seem to deal with starship logistics (Ports of Call and Lurulu, where freighters engage in a super-complex form of triangular trade). Inasmuch as spaceships play a role, it is as a way to get to new adventures, as exquisitely furnished living spaces, or as objects of conspicuous consumption.

Not that I oppose Traveller's mini-games - I would enjoy some of them - but again, not something SF can exist without.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531903Someone please tell me this isn't happening.  (Does a Will roll.)

Quote from: jeff37923;531904He. Is. Correct.

I must be drunk.....

Damn it. I think my universal translator needs to be recharged.

I didn't understand a damn thing that Sett wrote.

I understand perfectly what he's saying. I just happen not to agree with a word of it.

Quote from: Settembrini;531887A system that has boardgames associated with it, has a clear, formalized understanding of strategic and grand strategic scales and intereaction scheme of the game world.

Seriously, Sett?

By your standards, then, I should chuck both Traveller and SWN, and start hacking away at D&D 4e. I mean, it's the most boardgamey RPG I know of. This must mean it's got "a clear, formalized understanding of strategic and grand strategic scales and intereaction scheme of the game world", amirite?

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Settembrini;531887A system that has boardgames associated with it, has a clear, formalized understanding of strategic and grand strategic scales and intereaction scheme of the game world.

That's like saying "a system that has a film or cartoon series associated with it has a clear, formalised understanding of narrative techniques and storytelling scales". Or "a setting that has a timeline chart has a clear, formalised understanding of realistic history". Or "systems where the equipment list includes pictures of clothes has a clear, formalised understanding of sartorial techniques and haberdashery".

Ridiculous. Buck Rogers in the XXV. Century has several TSR-published boardgames associated with it, and they have zero relevance to whether or not the RPG has realistic grand strategic dimensions.

Also, lovely blanket statement. If WotC published Greyhawk Monopoly and a Forgotten Realms Risk, would you assert with the same vehemence that D&D as a system has a clear understanding of strategy and grand strategy?

QuoteA system without is to be doubted in that field until proven otherwise.

And in the case of SWN, it is proven otherwise. The Factions subsystem allows for the abstract simulation grand strategy with political, military, economic and espionage action, and further supplements give additional material to flesh out the above.

QuoteScience Fiction rpgs without strategic and grand strategic levels of interaction are prone to become navel-gazing exercises in space dungeoneering and/or mommy-daddy relationship whinery ...in a STARSHIP!!

And fantasy RPGs without the same are prone to become navel-gazing excercises in underground dungeoneering and/or mommy-daddy relationship whinery... in the MIDDLE AGES! And strangely, you don't seem to be complaining about that. Double standards.

QuoteNow, you might add the missing elements. But then, we do not need to talk about system comparison.

As I said above, the "missing" elements are already there, right in the book.