Quote from: GeekyBugle;1097299And it's all about not excluding anybody, except those bad bad people who don't toe the party line.

To be fair, you can't get much more punk than that.

They choose their name well. If they think this is going to displace or destroy the OSR they are dreaming. I don't think these crybullies know what the OSR is. This stinks of obey us without question because it is for your own good you Neanderthals.

They're incapable of actually creating, at least anything that isn't abject drivel. The goal from the beginning was just to try to destroy the OSR, and it failed.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1097625They're incapable of actually creating, at least anything that isn't abject drivel. The goal from the beginning was just to try to destroy the OSR, and it failed.

Evil can not create, it can only corrupt.

What's funny to me about all this reactionary angst towards OSR (which is what I consider the game creation attempt this thread is about) is that I feel like OSR has a much more diverse developer crowd than any other genre of RPGs. Whether that be skin-tone, nationality, economic class, gender, political leaning, sexuality, etc. People from all walks of life seem to be able to make acceptable if not good content for the OSR genre.

I think this angst comes predominately from the existential horror generated by conservatives in that mix making entertaining media. The rest of the angst comes from young people not liking old things.

Why does the "diversity" of the designers matter?
Why does the "diversity" of the artists matter?

News flash. It does not.

Quote from: Omega;1097723Why does the "diversity" of the designers matter?
Why does the "diversity" of the artists matter?

News flash. It does not.

Imo diversity of ideas is important.

Quote from: Slambo;1097727Imo diversity of ideas is important.

Yes, but if you have a bunch of postmodernist assholes of diferent skin color/sex/sexuality are you getting diversity of ideas?

And when said postmodernist assholes say "diversity" they are talking only about superficial traits.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1097731Yes, but if you have a bunch of postmodernist assholes of diferent skin color/sex/sexuality are you getting diversity of ideas?

And when said postmodernist assholes say "diversity" they are talking only about superficial traits.

That depends now, doesn't it?
But you go right on assuming it do not, and when it seem to do, that it is merely superficial.

Although, it is clear that it do not automatically give diversity, and that utter homogenenic .... (my english currently fails a bit here) ... state of things is not automatically unable to produce variety of ideas, and it is also clear, that if an idea is permeating a movement, it might get so obvious that it drowns out the diversity it do include.
And thus, if the "diversity" is propagated too much, there is also the clear risk of the WORD becoming the propagated thing, and not what Diversity actually means.

EDIT:
My point is, that yes, even if they are "postmodernist assholes", they can indeed produce diversity, just like a cadre of .... all .... (insert colour) (insert sex) (insert political angle) is fully capable of creating diversity.

Quote from: Catelf;1097734That depends now, doesn't it?
But you go right on assuming it do not, and when it seem to do, that it is merely superficial.

Although, it is clear that it do not automatically give diversity, and that utter homogenenic .... (my english currently fails a bit here) ... state of things is not automatically unable to produce variety of ideas, and it is also clear, that if an idea is permeating a movement, it might get so obvious that it drowns out the diversity it do include.
And thus, if the "diversity" is propagated too much, there is also the clear risk of the WORD becoming the propagated thing, and not what Diversity actually means.

EDIT:
My point is, that yes, even if they are "postmodernist assholes", they can indeed produce diversity, just like a cadre of .... all .... (insert colour) (insert sex) (insert political angle) is fully capable of creating diversity.

Postmodernist asshole is an ideology, therefore it follows that people with the same ideology think alike, hence no diversity of thought.

Race/sex/sexuality ARE NOT ideologies, therefore belonging to any combination of those doesn't mean you think alike any other random person that has the exact same combination of those superficial traits.

And then you go back to ideologies "political angle", which goes back to my first refutation of your argument.

Now keep on trying to equate superficial immutable characteristics with ideology, please.

And now back to talking about why any character of any superficial characteristic should be a valid target or none can be.

Quote from: Omega;1097723Why does the "diversity" of the designers matter?
Why does the "diversity" of the artists matter?

News flash. It does not.

It does, you just do not see it, because it isn't obvious.

But yes, i do admit that "Forced Diversity" do hurt, and that it also may hurt to the extent of resulting in a severe backlash.
.... which we have seen.
...And that the act of forcing matters ALSO risk run rampant so that it goes too far, as to force things "just because" instead of actually having a good reason.
.... And yes, "Forced Diversity" do seem to be in that state now, at least from some viewpoints.
.....Which means that the backlash has already started.
.......And so has the counter against the backlash, because the backlash has actually ALSO already gone on for long enough to lose its track.

Quote from: Catelf;1097738It does, you just do not see it, because it isn't obvious.

It does not.

The colour of a persons skin, or their gender, or whatever, is absolutely irrelevant to a persons ability to write a good game or do a good piece of art, or run a company, or whatever.

Hiring someone solely because of their skin colour or gender or whatever is tokenism or filling some quota or worse yet, mere virtue signalling.

If the only reason you want to hire me is because I am handicapped then no that is not diversity. It is everything but diversity.

You want to reduce us to a set to collect. A quota to meet.

Some of us have had to live through this stupidity before and all this new "diversity movement" is is the same old gag all over again doing far far more damage than any good it such dehumanization could do. And now we are starting to see RPG companies wanting to enforce that at every table if they could. "Hey Bob? I got an extra cripple and nigger at my table. Wanna trade for that spare fag and gook you have so I can complete my Diversity Set?"

Maybee they will sell us in randomized boxes.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1097737Postmodernist asshole is an ideology, therefore it follows that people with the same ideology think alike, hence no diversity of thought.

Race/sex/sexuality ARE NOT ideologies, therefore belonging to any combination of those doesn't mean you think alike any other random person that has the exact same combination of those superficial traits.

And then you go back to ideologies "political angle", which goes back to my first refutation of your argument.

Now keep on trying to equate superficial immutable characteristics with ideology, please.

And now back to talking about why any character of any superficial characteristic should be a valid target or none can be.

Well, we have a slight problem here.
One of them are you not grasping how diversity works, nor where it may show up, nor how much of obvious impact that it may leave.
Another is the risk of you reading things into what i write/say that i did not ... or at least did not mean.

And i am not going shitty doublespeak claiming that homogeneous forms always lead to diversity nor vice versa, i say that either are not automatically exempted from the other, a matter that should be obvious.

What i ALSO pointed out as obvious, is that an overhanging idea easily DROWNS OUT said variety/diversity, but that do not mean that it do not exist, mind you.

Also, i think that we both knows that there were a time when the "common man" claimed to KNOW that certain superficial characteristics were the same as having a certain ideology.
We should know today that THAT is not true, yet it still happens today ... in the west ... with Arabs, currently.
My point is that we are not immune to that sort of thinking!

I still claim to be a "leftie", but i know today that shit i "learned" while growing up, and even during when i was questioning things, were damned utter LIES, and the worst is that it was told as truths.
Not only lies about the left from the right, but also lies about the left from the left, lies about the right from the left, and lies about the right .... from the right ...
Again, WE ARE NOT IMMUNE AGAINST THAT SHIT !

So, yes, there are Diversity within ideologies as well, and if you do not realize that, then you are merely lying to yourself.

And yes, i do address you specifically, because of the quote from Orwell that you (currently) have in your description, about TRUTH being revolutionary.
I like the quote, it is logical, and true ....
And because of that, i also do not like when you fall into the same trap as the one that you clearly do not want to drop in.

Quote from: Omega;1097739It does not.

The colour of a persons skin, or their gender, or whatever, is absolutely irrelevant to a persons ability to write a good game or do a good piece of art, or run a company, or whatever.

Hiring someone solely because of their skin colour or gender or whatever is tokenism or filling some quota or worse yet, mere virtue signalling.

If the only reason you want to hire me is because I am handicapped then no that is not diversity. It is everything but diversity.

You want to reduce us to a set to collect. A quota to meet.

Some of us have had to live through this stupidity before and all this new "diversity movement" is is the same old gag all over again doing far far more damage than any good it such dehumanization could do. And now we are starting to see RPG companies wanting to enforce that at every table if they could. "Hey Bob? I got an extra cripple and nigger at my table. Wanna trade for that spare fag and gook you have so I can complete my Diversity Set?"

Maybee they will sell us in randomized boxes.

Yes it does, because it often mean that the person doing it have a different outlook on things.
Yes, that outlook may seem or even be superficial at times, but really, this is entertainment, and here, both surface and depth are key parts.

I actually don't mind "tokenism", because one has to start somewhere, and tokens is a start, it is what you do afterwards with those "tokens" that are important.
I agree that it cannot replace skill, but skill takes time to develop ... so where to put the line?
No Diversity?
Some?
Only Skill counts?
Meh, "Skill" is actually a bit hard to spot in game creation, unless it is the vague definitions of Great, Competent, or Sub-par, and even there things easily are confused with Style ...

There is over-focus or even downright obsession with "Diversity" in certain groups though, and ... well, they are a bit of a problem, but there is ALWAYS problematic matters, things to quarrel about.
If this is merely one of those things, then i do not care.

As for the "collectible" jokes ...
I guess i'd fill the "Furry" slot.
Or the Transgender slot.

There is always things to get insulted about, no matter who or what you are.
It is interesting, that the tables are a bit turned today, and you might feel like a pariah or nothing just because you are white, male, or straight hetero ...
It is not fun to feel like that.
And so people responds !
We just wanna be ourselves.
And i just go ... welcome to our world.
I'm technically a white male, but i'm actually a Furry Therian Otherkin Bisexual Transwoman ... and a bit trans-racial too (as if the Otherkin part weren't weird enough) ...
Yes, i'm a metal snowflake, special even among the weirdos, but you would currently not see that by looking at my current physical form.
I'm not happy, ... all the damned stereotypes ... oh, yeah, i have some weird mental problems too (of course i have to have that as well, why not, ...)
My ACTUAL POINT IS ....
NO ONE LIKES TO BE A PARIAH !
...Unless you are severely masochistic.
No matter your skincolour, ideology, gender, hobby, style or other thing.
It was just required some shit like this to get "normies" to end up on the receiving end of that feeling, and to perhaps understand, but really, none of us wanted this, not really.
...And those that did want it ... i can't say i blame them.

...Damn, sorry for the unwarranted rant ... i think?

* sighs *

Well, this is where we have to go from now, i guess.
There is no going back, we have to fix things now.
Preferably ASAP.

Quote from: Catelf;1097740Well, we have a slight problem here.
One of them are you not grasping how diversity works, nor where it may show up, nor how much of obvious impact that it may leave.
Another is the risk of you reading things into what i write/say that i did not ... or at least did not mean.

And i am not going shitty doublespeak claiming that homogeneous forms always lead to diversity nor vice versa, i say that either are not automatically exempted from the other, a matter that should be obvious.

What i ALSO pointed out as obvious, is that an overhanging idea easily DROWNS OUT said variety/diversity, but that do not mean that it do not exist, mind you.

Also, i think that we both knows that there were a time when the "common man" claimed to KNOW that certain superficial characteristics were the same as having a certain ideology.
We should know today that THAT is not true, yet it still happens today ... in the west ... with Arabs, currently.
My point is that we are not immune to that sort of thinking!

I still claim to be a "leftie", but i know today that shit i "learned" while growing up, and even during when i was questioning things, were damned utter LIES, and the worst is that it was told as truths.
Not only lies about the left from the right, but also lies about the left from the left, lies about the right from the left, and lies about the right .... from the right ...
Again, WE ARE NOT IMMUNE AGAINST THAT SHIT !

So, yes, there are Diversity within ideologies as well, and if you do not realize that, then you are merely lying to yourself.

And yes, i do address you specifically, because of the quote from Orwell that you (currently) have in your description, about TRUTH being revolutionary.
I like the quote, it is logical, and true ....
And because of that, i also do not like when you fall into the same trap as the one that you clearly do not want to drop in.

Lets see if I can get this thru:

"Diversity" of superficial and immutable characteristics doesn't equate diversity of thought. It doesn't preclude it but it sure as fuck doesn't guarantee it either.

And, hiring on such basis is racism/sexism/etc.

Because to have "positive" discrimination you NEED to discriminate against those you're not discriminating for. Ergo this is a bigoted idea, so I cannot be in favor of it. It goes against my principles.

Now, regarding truth, That thing X is possible, doesn't mean it's probable. For instance it's possible that the Sun goes nova and incinerates earth in 24 hours from now. BUT is it probable?

Same goes for your point about having people with the same ideology and still having diversity of thought, it is possible, and in the case of some ideologies even probable, but not in the case of the postmodernist assholes, their ideology precludes it, by even making the question if it's good to discriminate based on race you're an heretic and must be burned at the stake.

So, you're wrong and no matter how many hypotheticals you create this will not change. There is such thing as truth after all and zealots are gonna behave as zealots no matter what religion they belong to. And don't kid yourself, SocJus IS a cult.