Quote from: Seanchai;277771I have yet to pick up a licensed product of a show, movie, book, etc., that I have personal knowledge of and feel that gets the recipe right, even accounting for the differences in presentation. Too much has been lost.

Thus my response was that licensed products fail.

Well, I have a different standard of success.  An RPG is a very different thing than a television series or a movie.  I think that regardless of what genre or specific source material it is drawing from, an RPG should try to be a successful game on its own first and foremost.  

For example, I see Champions in this light.  Do it's results closely emulate four-color comics?  Far from it.  However, it is a very fun and successful game based on that genre.  If people want the feel of reading comic books, they should read comic books.  

Despite a number of flaws, I think the Buffy RPG is a very good RPG effort -- probably in my top ten list.

Quote from: Gavken;277847What else would you want from an RPG that emulates Buffy.

I haven't seen the show in years and my copy of the game is packed away, but without too much thought I come up with: witty repartee.

Seanchai

Re: Witty repartee

Quotes from the show are included throughout the book. Pretty all of them are witty comments from the show to give the reader an idea of the show.

In game the players must come up with witty repartee themselves and witty comments are rewarded with bonus drama point so I don't see where this is missing.

Anything else?

Gavin

Quote from: Gavken;278408In game the players must come up with witty repartee themselves...

Exactly!

Whedon's shows are marked with a certain verbal playfulness. Whether it's the "teen speak" of Buffy or the affectations of Firefly, the manner in which the characters communicate is important to the feel of the show.

If the players can't reproduce that, said feel is lost. The game mechanics might reward appropriate speech and diction, but they can't generate it.

Seanchai

...That is one of the most nit-picky and pointlessly deconstructionist arguments I have *Ever* seen.

Congratulations.

Quote from: Seanchai;278504Exactly!

If the players can't reproduce that, said feel is lost. The game mechanics might reward appropriate speech and diction, but they can't generate it.

Seanchai

We're talking about whether the game encourages simulation the license not about whether players are capable of playing well. Buffy is one of the best license tie-ins that I've seen (for the reasons I've already given). If you don't happen to like Buffy or can't roleplay it then that's not the fault of the system.

Conversely the Farscape RPG and the Serenity RPG are not as effective. The Serenity RPG in large parts lacks the feel of the show. There are no appropriate rules for space-ship chases and combats, there's no guidelines for using Chinese phrases, there's nothing to promote the witty banter of the crew.

Gavin

Quote from: Gavken;278627We're talking about whether the game encourages simulation the license not about whether players are capable of playing well.

Not exactly. We're talking about whether or not a game can basically replicate the license. Whether a role-playing game or a specific game can.

Saying, "Well, it's up to the players to fill in what the game is missing," is extrinsic to the game itself. It's not a part of the game.

Could a group of people who are familiar with a licensed product and all pretty much agree about the "recipe" of license is reproduce something that they're satisfied? Absolutely.

But that's not the same as grabbing a product off the shelf and having it perform as specified.

Basically, if you buy soup mix, but have to add water, meat, and vegetables, you didn't really buy soup mix. It doesn't make a soup by itself. It can make a soup, in concert with other elements, but by itself it's just dry spices.

Quote from: Gavken;278627If you don't happen to like Buffy or can't roleplay it then that's not the fault of the system.

It is the fault of the system when the game doesn't provide the tools necessary to replicate the mood, tone, feel, etc., of its licensed source.

You didn't disagree with my point in the last post: Witty banter is a big part of what makes Buffy Buffy. Without it, you've got Shadow Chasers. It's an important element.

While the Buffy RPG may hint around about the dialog, provide bonuses, etc., it itself doesn't engender it. One group using the product might get awesome dialog that sounds as if Whedon penned it himself and another might get abysmal interplay that sounds as if it's straight out of a 70's porno.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;278724It is the fault of the system when the game doesn't provide the tools necessary to replicate the mood, tone, feel, etc., of its licensed source.

You didn't disagree with my point in the last post: Witty banter is a big part of what makes Buffy Buffy. Without it, you've got Shadow Chasers. It's an important element.

While the Buffy RPG may hint around about the dialog, provide bonuses, etc., it itself doesn't engender it. One group using the product might get awesome dialog that sounds as if Whedon penned it himself and another might get abysmal interplay that sounds as if it's straight out of a 70's porno.

Seanchai

But the game does provide the tools to show you the type of dialogue in Buffy. It is impossible for any game system to suddenly make people who are not naturally witty to create witty banter. A gamebook cannot tell you what to say - and if it does is it really roleplaying anyway? It can and does engender an atmosphere to promote you trying to do it - which is as much as any roleplaying game can do.

I find your whole fault with the game hilarous to be honest. Its like saying D&D is rubbish as it doesn't make me actually feel like I'm really bashing monsters with a sword.

Gavin

Quote from: Gavken;278753It is impossible for any game system to suddenly make people who are not naturally witty to create witty banter. A gamebook cannot tell you what to say...

Yes, I know, that's my point.

Quote from: Gavken;278753It can and does engender an atmosphere to promote you trying to do it - which is as much as any roleplaying game can do.

Sorry, but providing a few examples doesn't do it. Buffy speak is a pretty major component of the show.

Quote from: Gavken;278753I find your whole fault with the game hilarous to be honest. Its like saying D&D is rubbish as it doesn't make me actually feel like I'm really bashing monsters with a sword.

Except D&D's aim isn't to make me, the player, feel as if I'm actually bashing monsters. The aim - and raison d'etre - of the Buffy RPG is to recreate the show in RPG form.

That's why I feel this standard exists for licensed RPGs. We're not talking about a wide continuum of play - we're trying to recreate a very specific mood, theme, feel, etc..

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;278872Except D&D's aim isn't to make me, the player, feel as if I'm actually bashing monsters. The aim - and raison d'etre - of the Buffy RPG is to recreate the show in RPG form.

That's why I feel this standard exists for licensed RPGs. We're not talking about a wide continuum of play - we're trying to recreate a very specific mood, theme, feel, etc..

I'm trying to get a handle on your argument here.  You seem to be saying that the implicit purpose of any game that calls itself a Buffy game is to recreate the feel of the TV series with no outside knowledge and no creativity on the part of the players or GM?  

So if they players have to use their creativity or their knowledge of the show to make their RPG sessions have a Buffy-like mood, then the game is a failure.  You agree that this is impossible, but you still say that this simply supports your assertion that all licensed RPGs are failures.  

Am I missing something here, or does that sound accurate?

Quote from: jhkim;278902You seem to be saying that the implicit purpose of any game that calls itself a Buffy game is to recreate the feel of the TV series with no outside knowledge and no creativity on the part of the players or GM?

No. I'm saying the implicit purpose of an RPG based on the Buffy television show is to recreate, as best as it can given different medium, said show.

Isn't that the point or purpose of any license? And, more the point, isn't that the reason you run the Buffy RPG instead of a vaguely Buffy-like game using GURPS?

If we break the elements of the game-in-play into its component parts and what is emulating the show is the participant's knowledge of the show, why would the game-as-written get the credit for that?

Quote from: jhkim;278902So if they players have to use their creativity or their knowledge of the show to make their RPG sessions have a Buffy-like mood, then the game is a failure.

It would have failed to emulating the show. The mechanics might be awesome. It might produce an awesome game-in-play that is vaguely like Buffy or so fun that no one really cares anymore if it's emulating the show, but it would have still failed.

Quote from: jhkim;278902You agree that this is impossible, but you still say that this simply supports your assertion that all licensed RPGs are failures.

Yes. The first is the foundation of the second. If I'd seen, read, played, etc., an RPG that could emulate its source material well, then I wouldn't have the opinion that they're all doomed to failure...

Seanchai