This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash  (Read 2561 times)

Cranewings

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3520
Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2009, 10:34:28 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;293126
Well, there are games that have rules for story conventions like that.  However, you generally call these swine and non-RPGs.  For example, With Great Power is a game that does this.  Superheroes are rated solely by their awesomeness.  Whether they do this via batarangs or super-strength has the same effectiveness in defeating villains.


An rpg is a game where a character is like a hand of cards to be played. If you don't play them the best way you can, you aren't playing a game. No one likes being forced to wear kid gloves.

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11749
Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2009, 12:13:20 PM »
Quote from: jhkim
Well, there are games that have rules for story conventions like that. However, you generally call these swine and non-RPGs. For example, With Great Power is a game that does this. Superheroes are rated solely by their awesomeness. Whether they do this via batarangs or super-strength has the same effectiveness in defeating villains.

Quote from: Cranewings;293218
An rpg is a game where a character is like a hand of cards to be played. If you don't play them the best way you can, you aren't playing a game. No one likes being forced to wear kid gloves.

It sounds like you feel like you're disagreeing with me -- but I think the opposite is true.  In a game like GURPS Supers or Superworld, the player of Superman has to really wear kid gloves in order for his character to seem like a superhero rather than a bully or threat to humanity.  

However, in a game like With Great Power..., playing within the genre conventions is part of the mechanics.  It uses playing cards, and the player really does try all-out with his hand of cards to beat the GM's villain hand.  

I think one of the clearer examples of internalizing genre conventions for me was the contrast of GURPS Martial Arts versus Ninja Hero.  Ninja Hero is designed assuming a campaign in the martial arts genre -- one notable change is that instead of an OCV bonus for multiple attackers, there is a penalty.  Thus, it is usually more effective to go one-on-one against foes rather than ganging up.  In contrast, GURPS Martial Arts has cinematic rules as an option, and has a sidebar of suggestions for how the GM should convince the PCs not to use "dirty tricks" in combat even though they are more effective.

Soylent Green

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2508
Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2009, 01:11:01 PM »
Quote from: Cranewings;293218
An rpg is a game where a character is like a hand of cards to be played. If you don't play them the best way you can, you aren't playing a game. No one likes being forced to wear kid gloves.


No, that only covers one style of play, not all styles.

If you are playing Ghostbusters or Paranoia, you are going to be a lot more focused on getting the laughs than acing all the encounters.

If you are playing Pendragon, it's not just the results that matter, it's the style. Losing with honour is better than winning with trickery.

The fact is there are a lot of games which are simply more fun if you focus more on getting into the spirit of things rather than simply beating the scenario.

And then of course there are games which are very good at providing challenges in which you do need to focus on effective tactics make the most of the rules.

That is why there are so many systems out there so that we can all naturally drift towards style(s) of play we are happiest with.
New! Cyberblues City - like cyberpunk, only more mellow. Free, fully illustrated roleplaying game based on the Fudge system
Bounty Hunters of the Atomic Wastelands, a post-apocalyptic western game based on Fate. It's simple, it's free and it's in colour!

MoonHunter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • M
  • Posts: 377
    • http://www.strolen.com
Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2009, 01:20:28 PM »
Pundit, if you apply the full rule of physics (and remember the retributions.. Flash punches something at mach 12, the human hand impacts something else at that speed, it will become pulp), then you are not playing a comics game. You end up playing game with super powers.  Do you understand the distinction? If you are playing a comic styled game, you need to accept the (sometimes annoying) rubber physics that goes with it.
 
Humans can't hold up walls (or roofs) with great strength, as they will just fall down around them.

Humans fly at a good altitude, and they get hyperthermia and have difficulties breathing,

Flash moves at mach .5 and passes out in just a moment or two due to air pressure and the inability to bring air into his lungs.   Having to stop and be still and breath. Then go again.

Superman should be eating the biomass output of a country because solar power isn't enough to fuel his energy needs.  Ditto with any number of other characters.

The above mentioned, what happens if anything hits The Flash while moving mach something (rips through him like a bullet - ever seen what straw can do in a twister and that isn't even mach). And The Flash should never hit things, just zip by and let the sonic boom snark them.

Super Archery makes someone a credible threat?

Superbreath, need I say more.

Reality breaks when you start applying it to powers.

Reality is toss out the window in a comic styled campaign. Without the Rubber Physics characters based on Classic Comic Characters are largely impossible.  

And realism it is tossed out too...
A couple good laywers and your average superhero will become a reviled vigilantee in short order.  And what about those restraining orders?  Most states in the US have laws against mask, false identities, and vigilantism.  Even if you relaxed those, lawyers and government agencies would deal with these people in appropriate ways.

How many punks can Batman really catch a day, while waiting between Super Villians to escape Arkham?  How does he get to all that crime in time?  Really, he is just another patrol guy that can do a bit more because he isn't filling out paper work. (And many of those guys he catch will walk given the court system).

Supermans powers make everyone else trivial and he should be ruling the world. If he isn't with super speed and other abilities, he can catch every criminal in a region without help and go on to patrol another one.

Batman's player is still smarter than everyone else and better have those contingency plans in place before someone makes him a smear from suprise. (And again, Batman's strength is his player, not his powers).

You have "The Big Kids" gone, because everyone except Superman could of been eliminated in their sleep by any agency that had half a clue, and Superman can be taken down if you have half a brain.  

Yes, the kid with n-ray telescopic vision and line of sight mental powers will rule the world.

Any player of an espionage game (or fans of that genre) can see all the applications here.  If these people were thinking tactically (and physics weren't against them), it would be a very different world and setting.  Here is where Batman's player rocks, with his planning (and tons of plans, alternate plans, and all those bluebooks/ notes full of them.. oh the nightmare flashbacks).  Oh wait, the DCs heroes were taken down by Batman's plans. A couple of times now.

And the world itself would have to be radically different to adapt to the existance of these people, not "it is just like our world, just with supers", the biggest genre convention in the comics.

The genre is one big reality check bounce. People want to apply realism to it. Okay, fun mental exercise. Not applicable once you get the big powers going. They bend physics too much in most cases.

Oh, Yes Jobbing happens in writing. If often happens in games... as the players don't want a segment long encounter. (Boom! done. Yawn. Next?) They want to have fun, so they tone down their effects or they don't use "The Closer"  - their power that would stop the scenario in 1 segment.  Thus they have fun over a turn or two.   (And it EPs out.  The pre-jobbing event is worth 0 eps, the jobbed event is worth 1-2. )  Cranewing, this also address you.  Yes, you can "win" with your powers. However, will that be fun? And the ep systems rewards challange. If something isn't, then no eps.

Now if you want to run something with super powers that has realism, the pull out your GURPs book (best game for it), and inflict all those lovely realism rules.  Humans with Super Karate or super speed break when they hit the metal things. Guys with superspeed break their hands at the speed of sound.  Kinetic energy bounce based on elastic collisions, as in "Stop the train with super strength... and bounce of it as it runs into you" or "You can't catch a falling person without breaking them". Super Speed must have super metabolism and either immortality or longevity with quick aging.  People with guns frequenly kill costumed clowns. Golden BBs will  happen. What you are talking about is a game akin to Wild Cards, where the physics are enforces (as much as possible).  Those games are fun. They can be a challange. They are not however, comic book styled games.  

They have different assumptions and their rules are applied differently.

Most supers game designers have designed their systems to kind of reflect their view of the rubber physics (and other genre conventions) of the comics.  Some are a bit more Marvel, others more DC, others just kind of pick a "cool feel" and go with it.  Mostly they designed a game for a Super Genre campaign, not a game with super powers.  They fudged on a lot of things because powers weren't fun or they didn't want to deal with it.

So yes, I get your point. Do you see mine? You want reality in an area that can't accept it.. because the world as they have defined it kind of breaks when you do.

So you need a whole new game. Nobody has designed a tactical super powers game yet.  The Supers Gamers like their rubber physics. Other gamers have yet to do it. If they did, it would be called Munchkin to the extreme or tac gamer/ number crunching nightmare as you would have uber crunchy bits and lots of reality twitching rules.  That would allow you all the tactical points of your supers game.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 01:41:00 PM by MoonHunter »
MoonHunter
Sage, Gamer, Mystic, Wit
"The road less traveled is less traveled for a reason."
"The world needs dreamers to give it a soul."... "And it needs realists to keep it alive."
Now posting way, way, waaaaayyyy to much stuff @ http://www.strolen.com

Abrojo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 81
Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2009, 02:13:43 PM »
It's not only about realism Moonhunter, there are 2 issues a player runs into imho.

1) I want to play a character with the pragmatic thinking of The Punisher but with the powerset of The Flash or Superman. Would you disallow this because it breaks genre to have such a powerful character be a pragmatic?

2) Ok ignoring cases like 1: we have The Flash with a character behavior that goes along with it.
The GM now presents me with a challenge and i am all happy that i found a way to solve it with my superspeed only to be shown a face and told "you are breaking genre!". So since the player is trying to emulate the behaviour of The Flash, he will end up asking on most challenges "do i break genre if i use my speed to solve this? or is this the part where i just take the punch and get captured by the villain?"
I mean, the player would have to question himself in all challenges if he can do the smart thing or if he has to play dumb and this is with even the best interests. For me at least, this would totally suck to play.

It is definitely not the same as pendragon, honor is more the equivalent of a superhero having sworn not to kill. It is part of the idealism of a character and helps take decisions when confronted by choice. But all this doesnt include to play stupid within the valid limits of what your character would do should he have thought about it.

So no, i dont believe a game system can do Flash & co. Either you allow the powers and players have to play stupid (which i find boring) or you ban the offensive powers and let players do as with any other rpg out there.
 

Soylent Green

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2508
Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2009, 03:27:54 PM »
Well it kind of like Pendragon in that if you see a knight at a bridge, even if you are not in the best of shape you are not going to ride around him, ford the river further downstream or wait of back up or.

And if confronting a mystery, a knight will not engage scientific method and logical deduction, let alone question peasants who may have witnessed something.
New! Cyberblues City - like cyberpunk, only more mellow. Free, fully illustrated roleplaying game based on the Fudge system
Bounty Hunters of the Atomic Wastelands, a post-apocalyptic western game based on Fate. It's simple, it's free and it's in colour!

Sigmund

  • a Toxic Sociopath
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4915
Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2009, 04:49:30 PM »
Quote from: Cranewings;293216
If Superman and Batman weren't fucking stupid, they would trade enemies for a day. Bruce Wayne would fuck up Lex Luther, ruin his business and find evidence on him for a ton of shit sense it is laying around everywhere, and Superman would float above Gotham, listen for maniacal laughter, and then crush it with eye beams.


LOL. We have a winner :)
- Chris Sigmund

Old Loser

"I'd rather be a killer than a victim."

Quote from: John Morrow;418271
I role-play for the ride, not the destination.

Simlasa

  • Lemon Tart
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5832
Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2009, 05:27:47 PM »
Quote from: Soylent Green;293269
Well it kind of like Pendragon in that if you see a knight at a bridge, even if you are not in the best of shape you are not going to ride around him, ford the river further downstream or wait of back up or.

And if confronting a mystery, a knight will not engage scientific method and logical deduction, let alone question peasants who may have witnessed something.


I dunno... the knight is held by honor, his own credos, to deal with problems according to his beliefs... and solving the crime according to his outlook on the world... and actual knowledge (or lack thereof) of how things work.

Neither of those compare IMO to a superhero intentionally gimping himself in order to stay in line with some 'genre convention'...

Abrojo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 81
Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2009, 08:03:02 PM »
Quote from: Soylent Green;293269
Well it kind of like Pendragon in that if you see a knight at a bridge, even if you are not in the best of shape you are not going to ride around him, ford the river further downstream or wait of back up or.

And if confronting a mystery, a knight will not engage scientific method and logical deduction, let alone question peasants who may have witnessed something.


Agreed, but the first case (bridge) is a choice due to being honorable and the second one is because of personality. The Flash playing dumb doesnt fall into any of this categories imho.

Also, a fellow knight would dont dare suggest something unhonorable. What happens if the Batman/Mr.Fantastic/Brainiac/Smart-Team-Leader of the group tell me how to apply powers properly? Ignoring them would now be pure stupid or rebellious on my part. So now the people behind those other characters have to be mindful of not recommending courses of action that trivialize challenges and therefore break genre.
 

Simlasa

  • Lemon Tart
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5832
Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2009, 08:39:11 PM »
This thread has really served to remind me why I don't much enjoy superhero comics...
Superheroes are nearly impossible to codify in any rational and consistent way... their abilities are changeable from issue to issue, different depending on who is doing the writing and the whims of dramatic necessity.
When I have seen them broken down to a more consistent/rational description... such as in GURPS or a video game like City Of Heroes... I enjoy them more but they really do cease to resemble the creatures from the comics (City Of Heroes ends up being far more 'pulp' than 'superhero').
Any game that could capture the genre accurately would pretty much have to subjugate every other consideration to that emulation... and I doubt I'd enjoy that.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 08:42:06 PM by Simlasa »

David Johansen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • D
  • Posts: 6222
Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2009, 10:07:46 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;292958
None of that convinces me that the conventions of genre will be followed.  In fact, some of them certainly don't. The Flash doesn't tend to get winded every 20 seconds, for example.

RPGPundit


So buy more fatigue or fast recovery.  A guy with 25 actions per round can sit around for 15 actions taking a breather and then go at it again and nobody'd be the wiser.

Honestly though the place where GURPS 4e breaks for supers is the interface between innate attacks and super strength in point costs.  Even with the patch in supers strength loses by a mile until you get past a certain point on the exponential scale they use and then it's suddenly fantastically better.

But this is a flaw in the points system.  The actual combat rules etc. handle it just fine.
Fantasy Adventure Comic, games, and more http://www.uncouthsavage.com

Soylent Green

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2508
Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2009, 02:30:24 AM »
Quote from: Abrojo;293314
Agreed, but the first case (bridge) is a choice due to being honorable and the second one is because of personality. The Flash playing dumb doesnt fall into any of this categories imho.

Also, a fellow knight would dont dare suggest something unhonorable. What happens if the Batman/Mr.Fantastic/Brainiac/Smart-Team-Leader of the group tell me how to apply powers properly? Ignoring them would now be pure stupid or rebellious on my part. So now the people behind those other characters have to be mindful of not recommending courses of action that trivialize challenges and therefore break genre.


Yes, I see what you mean. You are correct, there is a difference.

I guess with my style of play I tend to do have my characters do things which either look cool or fell right rather than the smart or efficient thing.
New! Cyberblues City - like cyberpunk, only more mellow. Free, fully illustrated roleplaying game based on the Fudge system
Bounty Hunters of the Atomic Wastelands, a post-apocalyptic western game based on Fate. It's simple, it's free and it's in colour!

MoonHunter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • M
  • Posts: 377
    • http://www.strolen.com
Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2009, 01:16:27 PM »
Quote from: Abrojo;293246
1) I want to play a character with the pragmatic thinking of The Punisher but with the powerset of The Flash or Superman. Would you disallow this because it breaks genre to have such a powerful character be a pragmatic?  


If I let that characetr into the game, we would stop playing the Super Hero Genre. Then again, I could unleash all the painful realism (such as scared government agencies with all that super sciencing hiding there or other hero groups - painfully powerful who want to stop you before you do things that will get them all incarcerated/ banned or force them to take over the world.). Again, we moved out of comic styled super hero games and moved into a game with powers. (Super Agents/ Meta Agents.)

You would say "why not?". I would ask you would you let a Camalot Paladin into your all thieves game?  Would you let a guy in a bozo the clown suit (and must wear it all the time) into your espionage team?  Would you let a guy in a bathrobe and pointy hat who claims to be a wizard (and is) into your science fiction mercenary campaign (okay you might).  Now if we were running a different kind of game, sure the character would work. If we are running a comic book styled game... no.

2) Now this one is open. It is not just genre involved in that, so I can't correctly address that one.   Novel use of powers (and use of the rules mechanics - which as we went through - usually support the reality bending super speed of comics) is just another way to play.  

Supers games tend to be about "powers you have" and "powers the GM approved".  Going beyond that because you logically should be able to, you have basically decided to ignore character creation and game rules. Minor things, okay. Major things, it would be like a fantasy character casting some spell (you would then say, you can't not on your sheet... he would say it is logical that I could). If you want to use reality to do certain things, that is okay.  Your GM might let you.  Then you will discover that reality cuts both ways as that piece of road debris rips through your thigh like a large cal bullet.  

Lack of genre application is usually dealt with by XP reduction.  Again, using another genre as an example - the Pendragon example -  If you ducked the knight at the bridge, you are not playing in the spirit of the game.  Sure you might be playing smart, but you are not playing Pendragon.

Genre compliance is a spirit of game compliance.  One of the reasons many people have unsatisfying Supers Games experiences is because either the GM or the Players "don't get it".  (Don't believe me, look at the number of people in the favorite/ least favorite thread).   Sure they are playing the "playing smart, and if I had powers we would do it this way", but that won't be a comic game.  It will be a game with powers. Playing that ways works a false expectation.  You expect a fun comic game, what you end up with a game with powers, a munchkin run in many ways.  That is why most people dislike supers gamings. It takes a lot of work to do it right.

Back to topic, Repeated non compliance, ends up like this... "Okay, you solved the problem. Well that was a fun 20 minutes. Time to go home. See you next week.  Oh and since it wasn't that much of a challange, 1 EP for showing up (instead of your normal 3). "

Many of the lack of genre related solutions will come from ingame consequences.  
**Okay, you stopped the criminal by causing every pane of glass to fall out of every building on the block,  here is a law suit for 2 million dollars for the glass and some endangerment suits.  
**Okay, you killed him.  I need to arrest you now so we can book you and set your trial date.
***Oh you decide to flaunt your vigilante status and ignore public outcry from above, well try doing "heroics" without popular support and now the law will be after you
**Here comes the traditional solutions to "perceived rogue supers", Other Supers teams.  Are your friends going to back you up and go to jail or bail?  There are other teams out there.
 
2) A - The current Flash, not that smart... so we don't have an issue.  However, I get your point.  So are you mentioning this as genre breaking as actions or genre breaking as applying real physics to get a cool effect (and getting effects you didn't buy in game)?  Two very different things.

You signed on for a supers game. You should strive to solve the issues along genre lines (See the Pendragon Knight example)  Sure, you might slide a bit from time to time, it should be okay (unless your GM is more of a #$@# than me). If you don't want to play it, then fine, Just why would you be there.  

The rubber physics... that gets messy.  Once the physics switch gets thrown, it all goes south.  It becomes harder for the GM to play (even if he is a physics major, like I was) and harder for the PCs to play.  Powers break/ bend a lot of physics rules.  

To address one last thing...

For me at least, this would totally suck to play.

Hence why you should not be playing.  And that is okay.  You are not a supers player. The bit about Supers Play is trying to show how good you are by how well you can work in their rules.  Just like a Noir game is about showing how well you can be the cynical protagonist, or a Pendragon game about being a honorable knight.  Any of these may not be their cup of team. And that is why we have so many different kinds of games.
MoonHunter
Sage, Gamer, Mystic, Wit
"The road less traveled is less traveled for a reason."
"The world needs dreamers to give it a soul."... "And it needs realists to keep it alive."
Now posting way, way, waaaaayyyy to much stuff @ http://www.strolen.com

Abrojo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 81
Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2009, 08:17:24 PM »
Quote from: MoonHunter;293420

You would say "why not?". I would ask you would you let a Camalot Paladin into your all thieves game?  Would you let a guy in a bozo the clown suit (and must wear it all the time) into your espionage team?  Would you let a guy in a bathrobe and pointy hat who claims to be a wizard (and is) into your science fiction mercenary campaign (okay you might).  Now if we were running a different kind of game, sure the character would work. If we are running a comic book styled game... no.


See, you are pushing my examples to the extreme trying to prove a point.
Yes, i understand why anyone would disallow such extreme examples. What i am asking (or have been asking) is for you to draw me the line (me as a player) where i break genre so i dont cross it.
Aka: when do i stop dodging. No, extreme examples with clowns, etc are not really helping me.


Quote from: MoonHunter;293420
Supers games tend to be about "powers you have" and "powers the GM approved".  Going beyond that because you logically should be able to, you have basically decided to ignore character creation and game rules. Minor things, okay.


So given my example of Flash powers and Punisher personality you as a GM rather ban the personality, i would rather ban the powers.

Quote from: MoonHunter;293420
Major things, it would be like a fantasy character casting some spell (you would then say, you can't not on your sheet... he would say it is logical that I could). If you want to use reality to do certain things, that is okay.  Your GM might let you.  Then you will discover that reality cuts both ways as that piece of road debris rips through your thigh like a large cal bullet.  


no, imho that example is wrong. That spell you describe would be like me asking for my power to do something it does not, like for example stretching for more than i can, going faster than i could or lifting more than i should.
My example of creative application of powers is more along the lines of "i use my fireball to ignite that oil" which most games can handle and allow but in a super games a similar application would be breaking the genre because i suddenly became too smart.

Quote from: MoonHunter;293420
Genre compliance is a spirit of game compliance.  One of the reasons many people have unsatisfying Supers Games experiences is because either the GM or the Players "don't get it".  (Don't believe me, look at the number of people in the favorite/ least favorite thread).   Sure they are playing the "playing smart, and if I had powers we would do it this way", but that won't be a comic game.


Here is where i disagree with your pendragon comparison. I am playing a knight that cares about honor, thats why i act in a certain way. My personality dictates my actions.
In your vision of a super example, i am playing a smart person that is stupid. There is no personality that dictates those actions. Imho, it is quite different.

Also regarding "people getting it" i think lots do, the difference is how they refer to it "putting kid's gloves", "dumbing the character down", etc.
Now i dont see many people saying this cant be played, it surely can. But since, as you said, it is quite difficult to put in game mechanics, the responsibility is on the players to keep the strong powers in check. For many people this is boring or just too hard for a given group.

However if there was a system that took away that responsibility to throttle from the players (and hence this thread), many more people would find it more fun.

Quote from: MoonHunter;293420

To address one last thing...

For me at least, this would totally suck to play.

Hence why you should not be playing.  And that is okay.  You are not a supers player. The bit about Supers Play is trying to show how good you are by how well you can work in their rules.  Just like a Noir game is about showing how well you can be the cynical protagonist, or a Pendragon game about being a honorable knight.  Any of these may not be their cup of team. And that is why we have so many different kinds of games.


I could play a supers game perfectly fine, even if it was in your point of view, i would just find it boring to have all this cool powers and not be able to use as i see fit.
 

MoonHunter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • M
  • Posts: 377
    • http://www.strolen.com
Superman Batman Green-Lantern Flash
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2009, 02:14:37 PM »
I think we in violent agreement on a couple of points, just using different terminology.

I won't quote, it will start getting too long.

#1  Most genre violations, if you want to put it that way, are quite variable.  Most groups who plays supers have that "consenual contract" about what seems super heroic and what not.  After a few sessions, most players fall into the groove (especially if the GM has pushed the requisite reading/ viewing on them).  Usually a gentle, "don't" or a quick explanation of "what happens to people who do that sort of thing (killing in public, attacking villians who might commit crimes, ignoring innocents, wanton avoidable damage). Most players, after hearing possible consequences, usually rethink their actions (a few do it anyways and wonder why the universe falls on them.)  A good supers GM is good at herding players in the right direction. (Many GMs are not, hence the number of "I hate supers since I played it" people).

If you want a list of 10 concrete things for all supers games, I can't provide you that. It is not a simple line.  And we are talking about a wide genre, slightly narrowed for a given campaign. GMs should be giving examples of what they expect and want in the campaign before you start building characters.


#2  A character concept (mundane, adventuring, and power aspects) and the player who will be playing it as a whole must be addressed.  In a supers game you can not seperate a part of it, as supers characters are a lot more complex than your average player character (you need to create everything for a normal PC, a mundane life, and adventuring life, and a complex set of powers, all interrelated. If anything is just "bolted on", you are doing it wrong.).  Read the Rogue Example earlier in this thread for this. It shows why a character might be "okay" mechanically, but not apprpriate for the player or how it will be played.

A Punisher type personality/ powers would be inappropriate to an Avenger's style game. Even more so for a Justice League.  Why would you be there, a PC halo?   Even a lesser team would eject them, lest the wrath he will eventually draw down splash on to them.  

He, in terms of personality, might be appropriate to a street crime game, but it depends on how "heroic" the rest of your troupe is. Then he might become someone on your side that the rest of the players have to hunt down as a murdering criminal. (That scenario create a ton of hard feeling between most players and usually results in someone leaving unless people are very careful... better to avoid). If you are playing Dark Champions/ Vigilantee game, then he is the norm and a perfectly acceptable character.  In either a street level or Dark Champions game, The Flash powers would be inappropriate for any character.  Out of genre to use our favorite term in this thread.  

If it isn't a street level game, and it is four color, then we will be sliding towards PC troupe vs the one PC after an adventure or so - if not at first contact unless the Punisher guy is very, very careful.

So you would ban it via powers (and I might too given the campaign). I would ban the personality, if it didn't match the campaign.  We are in general agreement, with the right examples (which is what I think you were thinking).

#3  Violent Agreement.  We are saying yes to the same thing.  Every creative application you mentioned is not a violation. In fact, they would be encouraged. Clever use of powers is not a violation. Supers games allow use of special effect for variation. (Any supers game that doesn't is pretty sad, as is any GM that won't).  It is the use of logic (I have super speed, thus I can do this, this, and this... yes but you only bought running at 23" (46m) and speed 6) without taking effects or advantages that get to a problem.  Let me illuminate.

Using my ability to manipulate water to mind control humans (control their actions) would be an issue, if you didn't buy a mind control or body control power . That would be a violation.  Vibrating the molecules of a brick I grabbed so it will be atomically unstable with my superspeed and will immediately explode as a small atomic blast using just super speed (and no other powers... like explosion), that is a violation.  Throwing something at mach 4 as a high energy ranged killing attack, without buying that power, violation (might be allowed in a really dramatic moment with lots of GM permissions).  

The last one is something to be addressed.  So you bought super speed, and thus have that cool power and now have the same effect as the guy who bought the energy blast because you picked up a bag of ball barings at the hardware store.  Thus you have made his powers trivial and free.   So do you think the speedster character should bag on the blaster for making a poor character, or do you think the powers should be defined as they are book defined, and the special effect then used to justify the speedster buying the blast power (with focus limits and such).

Now case can be made for the occasional exception, but if it is a regular basis, it should be a purchased effect.

A special effect is often used to justify the purchase of "odd powers".  Superspeed justifying the example's blast power, or the explosion power, or the vibrate through walls power is an example of special effect showing why a power should be purchased.  Some players just never get around to buying the odd powers for various reasons. Then complain when they can't use them.

Even with smart applications, "I use my super speed to create the friction to superheat the U235 to explode and run away as it does. Okay, you are a physics person, but your character is not.. how does he know that really?   And you can only run at 200mph you can't outrun the blast if you did. " there gets to be limits and issue. (Of course, if they guy knew about the U235 physics and didn't care about dying.... then go for it.)

I use my superspeed to create a tornado that carries the house away... umm okay..  And the house spins at hundred miles an hour and smears the people inside.. okay?  Wait, I don't want to do that. Then did you buy the telekinetic effect? No.. okay. other options?  See how that works?  Is this offensive to smart player and makes then dumb?

#4   Super Heroes are expected to be paragons, much the way your knights are. And like knights some are more "paragon like" than others.  If your supers are not (and not expected to be paragons), then that is a campaign style thing.. and sliding away from a comic style game.   So people are expecting you to be a paladin, and when you are not... it causes issues.

I think, you are addressing #3 with the smart person stupid. Lets us see that again.

If your character is "The smart guy", buy the skills to allow them to do all the "smart things".  Player knowledge vs character knowledge is a way to address some of that.  If you are a smart player, your character should have the skills that help you emulate that.

And yes, there are comics that have pragmatic smart heroes.  Most are not mainlines or have some really contrived things to allow them to co-exist with other heroes.

The responsibility is on the players to keep the strong powers in check.
Actually, no responsibility is shared between GM and the player.  If you allow a player to have a power that "plot stops" (20d6 EB or some such), and allow it into your game, you get what you deserve and they could use it at will (and earn the reduced ep for lack of challange - reaping what they sow). If they don't use it, things become a challange and the ep flow returns.  If a GM is going to have a problem with the power itself OR the way that The Specific Player is going to use the power, then they should not let it into their game. If they do, they get what they deserve.  Again, the Rogue Example illustrates this, a character that is a campaign breaker was allowed in because of the way the player was playing it. They pulled out their big gun only when big gun was needed (and sometimes not even then).  It was more fun for them and everyone (and for the xp hounds more profitable).

Do you not agree that players should work together to have fun in the game? (And balance that fun.)  Should one player be allowed to destroy the fun of others in the group?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 02:23:39 PM by MoonHunter »
MoonHunter
Sage, Gamer, Mystic, Wit
"The road less traveled is less traveled for a reason."
"The world needs dreamers to give it a soul."... "And it needs realists to keep it alive."
Now posting way, way, waaaaayyyy to much stuff @ http://www.strolen.com