Quote from: ffilz;1018262They used to be called modules... If well presented I love an adventure that doesn't have any plot other than maybe some hints as to what the goals of any major NPCs are.

Frank

Well aware of that, Frank! I'm slightly older than Gronan though he's been in the hobby longer! Anyway, that "if well presented" is always problematic with me. It's all about personal taste, and my personal taste is always askew. Best I can hope for reaction-wise is something like "Well! That was... interesting...".

I think the challenge I tend to have is even when I come up with multiple factions, motivated antagonists, or whatever, I tend to end up improving 1 step adventures. That is, PC's want to stop terrible thing X from happening, and NPC Y really wants to have terrible thing Y happen. Without, in advance, plotting out a whole bunch of steps (scenes), which is what I'm trying to get away from what I end up improving at the table is very unsatisfying. Example:

1. Players - let's go ask this NPC who is really behind this (we have a quick scene where they find out who is behind this);
2. Players, let's go shank the person behind this (combat where they shank the person).

As you can see, this improved 2 step adventure is super unsatisfying, but it's pretty much what happens when my players go off the rails to do their own thing. Which is great, I want them to do that, and I'd love to do 90% less prep, but when I improv with them what gets improv'd is VERY unsatisfying (at least in terms of number of steps to their goal and how challenging those steps are)

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1018312I think the challenge I tend to have is even when I come up with multiple factions, motivated antagonists, or whatever, I tend to end up improving 1 step adventures. That is, PC's want to stop terrible thing X from happening, and NPC Y really wants to have terrible thing Y happen. Without, in advance, plotting out a whole bunch of steps (scenes), which is what I'm trying to get away from what I end up improving at the table is very unsatisfying. Example:

1. Players - let's go ask this NPC who is really behind this (we have a quick scene where they find out who is behind this);
2. Players, let's go shank the person behind this (combat where they shank the person).

As you can see, this improved 2 step adventure is super unsatisfying, but it's pretty much what happens when my players go off the rails to do their own thing. Which is great, I want them to do that, and I'd love to do 90% less prep, but when I improv with them what gets improv'd is VERY unsatisfying (at least in terms of number of steps to their goal and how challenging those steps are)

Why is shanking the person behind it one step?

What system and campaign are you running?

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1018312I think the challenge I tend to have is even when I come up with multiple factions, motivated antagonists, or whatever, I tend to end up improving 1 step adventures. That is, PC's want to stop terrible thing X from happening, and NPC Y really wants to have terrible thing Y happen. Without, in advance, plotting out a whole bunch of steps (scenes), which is what I'm trying to get away from what I end up improving at the table is very unsatisfying. Example:

1. Players - let's go ask this NPC who is really behind this (we have a quick scene where they find out who is behind this);
2. Players, let's go shank the person behind this (combat where they shank the person).

As you can see, this improved 2 step adventure is super unsatisfying, but it's pretty much what happens when my players go off the rails to do their own thing. Which is great, I want them to do that, and I'd love to do 90% less prep, but when I improv with them what gets improv'd is VERY unsatisfying (at least in terms of number of steps to their goal and how challenging those steps are)

Wouldn't it be more interesting if the NPC lied to them, and they shanked an innocent person? There's a game that writes itself...

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1018312I think the challenge I tend to have is even when I come up with multiple factions, motivated antagonists, or whatever, I tend to end up improving 1 step adventures. That is, PC's want to stop terrible thing X from happening, and NPC Y really wants to have terrible thing Y happen. Without, in advance, plotting out a whole bunch of steps (scenes), which is what I'm trying to get away from what I end up improving at the table is very unsatisfying. Example:

1. Players - let's go ask this NPC who is really behind this (we have a quick scene where they find out who is behind this);
2. Players, let's go shank the person behind this (combat where they shank the person).

The thing you need to put more work into is not your "stories" or "plots" or "adventures."

The thing you need to put more work into is your NPCs!  Is NPC Y a complete, total, and utter imbecile?  No?  Then what has he/she/it/they/xu/fnord done by way of precautions to protect themselves?

Once you answer THAT question... the adventures, they run themselves!

Quote from: Azraele;1018320Wouldn't it be more interesting if the NPC lied to them, and they shanked an innocent person? There's a game that writes itself...

First, this, but only if the NPC was really lying, and they haven't guessed right:).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1018336The thing you need to put more work into is not your "stories" or "plots" or "adventures."

The thing you need to put more work into is your NPCs!  Is NPC Y a complete, total, and utter imbecile?  No?  Then what has he/she/it/they/xu/fnord done by way of precautions to protect themselves?

Once you answer THAT question... the adventures, they run themselves!

And second, this!
I mean, do your NPCs so suck at misdirecting people? If so, how did they survive long enough to get the influence to make Terrible Thing X possible;)?

Let me give you my favourite example.
The PCs in a wuxia campaign I ran are summoned (literally) by the Celestial Bureaucracy. They arrive via spell.
On the way out, a corrupt Celestial Official (most certainly possible) gives them the "additional task" of visiting a hermit on a mountain with a bad fame.
They did, and didn't question what the hermit asked them to do. End result, they freed a powerful demon. Because an NPC asked them to:D!
It was a fun thing how much they had to work to deal with it.

And not just misdirecting.  When I set up a bad guy lair, I make notes of procedures and tactics, what spells the spellcasters usually have and when they use them, etc.

Yes, the plan of battle is always the first casualty, but it's a hell of a lot better than not having a plan of battle.

Again, this is something that is obvious to all of you, but wasn't to me, and at the table doesn't occur to me.

It *seems* like there are some generic classes of "reasons why you don't immediately achieve your goal"

1. information incorrect (e.g., lied to)
2. need to find information to proceed to goal (e.g., don't know where big bad is)
3. someone or something is actively stopping you from completing your current step
4. someone or something is messing with you for a reason unrelated to your goal
5. you need to do something else to complete step (e.g., NPC will tell you X but only if you do Y, to get out of the city you need to steal a car)
6. something structurally is stopping you from implementing your tactic to complete your goal (e.g., NPC has magical "can't be surprised" ring so the 'lets just surprise him' plan won't work without modifications)

Is this kind of what we're talking about? Because from playing with better GMs than I I think this is the kind of thing they were doing.

If this is the kind of thing we're talking about, is there a list of things like this (I just made the above up based on this discussion) that I could get out of some published RPG book and print out and leave in front of me during the game?

Not that I know of.

But again, DEVELOP YOUR NPCs.  Mister Boggis is head of the Thieves' Guild.  What is the structure of the Guild?  What are Mister Boggis' skills?  What precautions does he take about his own safety?  Where does he sleep?  Does he never leave the Guild hall?  Does he travel with bodyguards?  What is the layout of the Thieves' Guild hall?  What guards/patrols do they have?

Answer all those questions beforehand, and you won't HAVE to keep a list in front of you.

All of this is what you are looking for. The NPCs in the factions you are using are the key. Set them up at the beginning! Know their assets - their skills, strengths, and M.O.

• Assume competency. They wouldn't get where they are without it.
• The leader is the best LEADER, not necessarily the best fighter. Leaders delegate to the best suited operatives available. I know video games teach us that the boss ALWAYS is the biggest combat threat, but really that is seldom the case
• Leaders have tricks and contingency plans
• Leaders don't casually meet up with other factions, and NEVER alone. That is a role for grunts and flunkies.
• Set up several levels of more generic operators - grunts are warriors (many) trained to work together, flunkies are skill people (less) and specialists, lieutenants are individuals (few) - basically Leaders in training, and of course trusted bodyguards, the best and smartest fighters.
• Home base is most likely designed for defense - traps, tricks, fields of fire, and control of access
• There is NEVER only one way out

If you are able to destroy a faction by shivving some punk in an alley, it wasn't much of a faction in the first place.

Well, first of all, no person would put themselves in a vulnerable situation with a bunch of potential murderhobos. They'd probably have meetings be several steps removed -- happening indirectly, through messengers, with lots of guards present, etc.

My previous post was predicated on the game being a typical anarchic points-of-light type setting. If you are casually shivving people in alleys in civilized lands, both the faction and the government should respond. Generally police take a dim view of people getting shivved in their alleys.

Mmmm, depends on setting.  Medieval towns didn't have a "police" per se.  The citizen discovering the corpse would raise the hue and cry.

And odds are they'd simply hang the first foreigner they found outside after curfew and call it done.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1018556Again, this is something that is obvious to all of you, but wasn't to me, and at the table doesn't occur to me.

It *seems* like there are some generic classes of "reasons why you don't immediately achieve your goal"

1. information incorrect (e.g., lied to)
2. need to find information to proceed to goal (e.g., don't know where big bad is)
3. someone or something is actively stopping you from completing your current step
4. someone or something is messing with you for a reason unrelated to your goal
5. you need to do something else to complete step (e.g., NPC will tell you X but only if you do Y, to get out of the city you need to steal a car)
6. something structurally is stopping you from implementing your tactic to complete your goal (e.g., NPC has magical "can't be surprised" ring so the 'lets just surprise him' plan won't work without modifications)

Is this kind of what we're talking about? Because from playing with better GMs than I I think this is the kind of thing they were doing.

If this is the kind of thing we're talking about, is there a list of things like this (I just made the above up based on this discussion) that I could get out of some published RPG book and print out and leave in front of me during the game?

I can't think of a  list more concise and informative than the one you just made. Congratulations! You're a pioneer XD

For further developing your lil cheatsheet there, I recommend the following things:

1. A mental exercise: what prevents you from doing things you want in real life? Stiff competition? Lack of proper resources? Laws and those who enforce them? Digging into this will give you more reasonable options for opposition faced by characters, and give you a good handle  on the why/when/how that it manifests

2. Research: watch some action movies (bond  movies are fantastic for this) and take notes on what stands between the hero and the final showdown. Minions, mini-bosses, defenses, jurisdiction, anything that a  screen writer throws up between a protagonist and dishing out a righteous ass-kicking is fertile dirt to mine for more general ideas.

If you combine this list with some healthy, well-prepared bad guy organizations (again, the Alexandrian is a goldmine for how to do this) you're set.

That's all good advice. I'm very good at GMing stuff in the moment - I can narrate stuff, play NPCs, describe scenes, etc. in a very engaging way. I'm even pretty good at coming up with cool scenario premises. The challenge for me is coming up with this stuff.

My players in our Deadlands Noir game came up with a kind of neat solution to a problem, so I just let them implement it and succeed. They just thwarted the NPC's / Factions as they had planned. Things ended kind of abruptly, and after the initial glow of "we're awesome," it was kind of unsatisfying.