That's one of the reasons I like Mythras.  Size factors in to augment Str and Con when it comes to dealing and taking damage.  So even if you had one character like the doctor on the left and another like the patient on the right with the same strength, size would make a difference.


Since Size can encompass Height, Weight, or both, it gives you a good way to approximate other fantasy species, as well as a more believable way to deal with supermodels vs. bodybuilders if you are so inclined.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1104116That's one of the reasons I like Mythras.  Size factors in to augment Str and Con when it comes to dealing and taking damage.  So even if you had one character like the doctor on the left and another like the patient on the right with the same strength, size would make a difference.


Since Size can encompass Height, Weight, or both, it gives you a good way to approximate other fantasy species, as well as a more believable way to deal with supermodels vs. bodybuilders if you are so inclined.

It's usually the same in old Swedish BRP rpgs like Drakar och Demoner, where high STR and SIZ gives a higher damage bonus. One could imagine a really strong female character with STR 18 (3D6 spann) vs a bigger male with the same STR value. Then in my thinking, SIZ and body weight would come into play. But if one wanted to make things extra believable, a short but strong guy would do short work of a tall and strong woman. Just look at Franco Columbu (R.I.P.). He was short and didn't even weigh over 200 lbs yet he was probably the strongest bodybuilder in history. He was 5 ft 5 in tall, had a contest weight of 185 lbs yet he benched 525 lbs and had a 750 lbs deadlift.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1104121It's usually the same in old Swedish BRP rpgs like Drakar och Demoner, where high STR and SIZ gives a higher damage bonus. One could imagine a really strong female character with STR 18 (3D6 spann) vs a bigger male with the same STR value. Then in my thinking, SIZ and body weight would come into play. But if one wanted to make things extra believable, a short but strong guy would do short work of a tall and strong woman. Just look at Franco Columbu (R.I.P.). He was short and didn't even weigh over 200 lbs yet he was probably the strongest bodybuilder in history. He was 5 ft 5 in tall, had a contest weight of 185 lbs yet he benched 525 lbs and had a 750 lbs deadlift.

I can imagine there being exceptions to the norm, in any RPG setting.  Some men have above average strength.  Some women have above average strength.  Neither is the norm.  If everyone has 18 strength, then 18 is just normal in that setting; and strength doesn't matter much in your game anymore.

Quote from: Chris24601;1104089Seriously, if you wanna argue real life, take it to the proper forum. If you wanna argue RPGs then accept that your argument only applies to those trying to emulate the real world and not a fantastic one.

Core mechanics of fantastic systems often do just that, whereas exceptions are layered on top of that. Your game seems to suggest that approach anyway.

You could also have a full range of numbers and then have a sexual dimorphism adjustment, like so many other racial adjustments, that may or may not cap out.

So STR ranges from 3-18, but the 'big one' gets a bonus of some kind. Perhaps +2 on scores up to 12, or a +1 on scores 12 or higher, but caps out at 18.

To visit a medieval setting:

The wheel on your wagon becomes damaged, and you must repair the wheel in question; or else replace the wheel in question.  Roll a skill check.  Your strength score actually matters in this scenario.  Having a high strength score gives you advantage in many aspects of life.

I agree that men, on average, are stronger than women. However, I don't find it a useful thing to worry about or model (especially for PCs) in the RPGs that I play.

Quote from: Razor 007;1104075Gygax lives!!!

Somebody better dig him out of the ground then! :eek:

So, the obvious comment is, not every class favors strength. Wizards use Intelligence to cast higher level spells, Thieves get bonuses for high Dexterity, and Clerics get more spells for having a high Wisdom.

Strength stat is something I'm not concered with simulating real life statistical differences between men and women.

Old, tired topic is old and tired.

Lets say you wish to play a setting X. If sexual dimorphism is a thing then you are correct and falling short too.

Let us model reality shall we?

The strongest human female is weaker than regular non trained guys: Human Females roll 2d6 for their STR stat or -2 to all checks regarding the stat.

Human Males are more likely to be a genius or a total idiot: Roll on the pertinent table to see how stupid (or not) you are. Females are more in the middle of the spectrum so no bonus and no penalty.

Human Males are more prone to violence and are seen as more of a threat: Penalty on all reaction rolls, plus a -2 on CHA. Females get a bonus and a +2 on CHA.

Human Males are more prone to act recklessly. Roll on the pertinent table to see if your character acted foolishly and the consequences.

Human Males are more risk prone: Penalty on living long enough or roll on the pertinent table to see if your risk taking finally managed to kill you.

Human Males see less color variation: Penalty on foraging for the correct ingredients for a potion/recipe.

I'm sure I forgot lots of stuff but to make my point it's enough.

Now this could be fun or not, and it could model reality better or not. But honestly nobody is stopping you from creating such houserules.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1104130Lets say you wish to play a setting X. If sexual dimorphism is a thing then you are correct and falling short too.

Let us model reality shall we?

The strongest human female is weaker than regular non trained guys: Human Females roll 2d6 for their STR stat or -2 to all checks regarding the stat.

Human Males are more likely to be a genius or a total idiot: Roll on the pertinent table to see how stupid (or not) you are. Females are more in the middle of the spectrum so no bonus and no penalty.

Human Males are more prone to violence and are seen as more of a threat: Penalty on all reaction rolls, plus a -2 on CHA. Females get a bonus and a +2 on CHA.

Human Males are more prone to act recklessly. Roll on the pertinent table to see if your character acted foolishly and the consequences.

Human Males are more risk prone: Penalty on living long enough or roll on the pertinent table to see if your risk taking finally managed to kill you.

Human Males see less color variation: Penalty on foraging for the correct ingredients for a potion/recipe.

I'm sure I forgot lots of stuff but to make my point it's enough.

Now this could be fun or not, and it could model reality better or not. But honestly nobody is stopping you from creating such houserules.

Awesome.  3d6, straight down the line?  4d6, drop the lowest?  Reroll 1s once?  Stat array, with gender modifiers?

I'm less interested in stats between the sexes as much as between the races. A human male and female both have the same str stat at 20? Cool. Could give less than a fuck.

A halfling and a half-orc both having a 20 str? Nope. There is no reason a half-orc should have difficulty arm wrestling someone the size of his turds.

That's one of the things I still like about Shadowrun (it's a quickly shrinking list, believe me). Different average stats with different caps meant that the world's strongest dandelion eater isn't close to being as strong as the world's strongest troll.

The male-female strength disparity is like any aspect of reality in RPG design: is it relevant to the experiences you want to simulate? Whether you're approaching the game from a Gamist or Narrativist perspective, there are reasons to say either yes or no to this question.

It's also worth remembering that it can make a difference how the disparity is addressed.  A rule that immediately penalizes starting STR scores for female PCs, and a rule that limits the maximum STR possible for female PCs, both acknowledge this disparity; however, the first one immediately places the female PC at what may be a significant disadvantage to her peers, while the second only imposes a limit farther down a curve of development that the player can choose to pursue or not. Any rule that puts a player at a disadvantage for a reason external to the game itself is going to be resented.

Quote from: Razor 007;1104132Awesome.  3d6, straight down the line?  4d6, drop the lowest?  Reroll 1s once?  Stat array, with gender modifiers?

Dude It's your house rules not mine, I'm more in the camp of Warboss Squee below.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1104133I'm less interested in stats between the sexes as much as between the races. A human male and female both have the same str stat at 20? Cool. Could give less than a fuck.

A halfling and a half-orc both having a 20 str? Nope. There is no reason a half-orc should have difficulty arm wrestling someone the size of his turds.

That's one of the things I still like about Shadowrun (it's a quickly shrinking list, believe me). Different average stats with different caps meant that the world's strongest dandelion eater isn't close to being as strong as the world's strongest troll.

You are correct (and my guess is the same reasoning is behind Razor 007 point).

Different "races" (Species really) should get different stats, this means that some will roll 2d6, 3d6 or even 4d6 for some stats. And not only STR, what about CHA, INT, DEX, etc? All stats should reflect the differences between the species.

And if you insist on having sexual dimorphism matter then maybe some species have the strongest, ferocious, violent be the female?

A huge can of worms trying to adjust all that.

But, in defense of Razor 007's point:

If there are no differences between the sexes aren't we all playing men in disguise? Just like playing men in rubber suits regarding the tieflings and other Tumblr favorite species?

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1104127I agree that men, on average, are stronger than women. However, I don't find it a useful thing to worry about or model (especially for PCs) in the RPGs that I play.

Bingo.

I don't have any penalty or limit on female strength as long as the player is a woman herself.

Quote from: Razor 007;1104075Gygax lives!!!

Troll.

Lets dance this moron dance again.

Actually this whole uproar is mostly a.... drum-roll please... FALLACY.

In AD&D human women have the exact same stat limits as men.

The ONLY exception being Fighters where women cap at 18/50 which places them well in the upper limits since anything over that was starting to get rare-er than the allready rare 18 score even with r4h3 method. And can exceed this by various methods.

Demi-human races were all over the place. But then they aren't human. (Personally I'd have mixed it up a bit and had things reversed for like elves and halflings.)